Different Killers

[Batman]

Maybe. It would explain that JtR didn't stop with Kelly and many suspects dropped.

[lynn cates]

parity of reasoning

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"So its another coincidence that Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly both had their abdomen flaps cut into 3 sections which where placed near the bodies?"

Gee, don't know. Do you think it's a coincidence that Polly, Liz and Kate did not? (Placed? Unless he launched them into orbit, OF COURSE they were placed. And that is true WHEREVER they are.)

"Is it also another coincidence that their legs and lower body are positioned the same way?"

Gee, don't know. I know MANY ladies who have given birth, and ALL had their legs open when the baby daylighted. (Same when they conceived.)

"Is it also another coincidence that MJK's arm has been placed in her abdominal cavity and that Chapman has had her arm placed on her breast?"

Where the devil did you expect it to be? In here rear, perhaps? But then, it would be "placed." (heh-heh)

"I thought the little illustrations that you wanted demonstrated this well. Or have you forgotten that already?"

I asked you what it meant; but, instead of answering, you fled in terror for your books to save you.

"The idea there is nothing sexual about these crimes is just a bad observation . . ."

The idea that they WERE sexual is nonsense.

Cheers, lad.
LC

[John G]

Hi Batman
Agree. But I would posit that the torsos would not have been done by a gang. I see a single killer there too, but whether it was also the ripper-that's another question.

Emma smith as the work of the ripper, with a gang or not, seems farfetched to me. His deal was all about the knife and what it can do to the female body.
Its all about the knife with the ripper.

The knife.

Hi Abby,

I'm actually becoming more convinced that Emma Smith should be included as a JtR victim. I think, as Tom Westcott's research has indicated, there is every reason to doubt her claim of being attacked by a gang, particularly when you consider that it took her some time to report the incident. Dr Haslip also pointed out that she was reluctant to give details of her attack, and it's worth noting that he subsequently told the press that he believed that Smith and Nichols were killed by the same person; surely indicating that he didn't accept her account. Inspector Reid was also of the same opinion, and he was the man in charge of the Smith murder investigation .I think it is therefore probable that she'd been soliciting but was unwilling to admit to it.

Of course, she had a blunt instrument inserted into her, rather than a knife. However, this would still amount to picquerismm which, has Batman has pointed out, is an incredibly rare signature characteristic. It's also worth noting that this blunt instrument was repetitively thrust deep inside of her, at various angles, and with great force: see Westcott (2014). Interestingly, there is the possibility that her assailant also used a knife; when asked by the coroner whether a knife had been used Dr Haslip replied: "She couldn't tell me whether it was a knife or what instrument had been used." Of course Keppel did not include Smith in the series, but that is probably because he accepted the orthodox view that she'd been attacked by a gang.

Consideration also needs to be given to the fact that serial sexual murderers are very unpredictable, and do not tend to leave specific signatures at every crime scene and, although their behaviour does tend to be thematically and behaviourally consistent, in most cases it changes or evolves (Shlesinger, 2010) In fact, in the Schlesinger study 70% of the offenders they studied behaved with one victim in a way that they didn't behave with any other victim, with typical experimentation including post-mortem genital mutilation and dismemberment.

[Jon Guy]

So its another coincidence that Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly both had their abdomen flaps cut into 3 sections which where placed near the bodies?

Is it also another coincidence that their legs and lower body are positioned the same way?

Is it also another coincidence that MJKs arm has been placed in her abdominal cavity and that Chapman has had her arm placed on her breast?

Another coincidence is that both Chapman and Kelly had their necks cut all the way around, notching the vertebrae:

Dr Bond on Kelly:
The tissues of the neck were severed all round down to the bone.
The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched

Dr Phillips on Chapman:
The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine.

[Hunter]

What is particularly disconcerting is that Dr Bond was clearly a very controversial figure: he thought Rose Mylett had accidentally strangled herself despite the fact that four other physicians concluded she'd been murdered. Wynne Baxter was scathing of this analysis, regarding the idea of death by nature causes as "nonsense".

Hi John,

If you are relying on what is written in the victims section here regarding Mylett, you should know there are some errors in it.

[John G]

Hi John,

If you are relying on what is written in the victims section here regarding Mylett, you should know there are some errors in it.

Hello Hunter,

Yes, I suppose that demonstrates the problem of relying on a single source! Nonetheless, Begg (2004) states that Dr Bond believed Mylett's death to have been a case of "death by natural causes" and that Wynne Baxter's response to this idea was "nonsense".

Moreover, Evans and Rumbellow (2006) also point out that Drs Brownfield, Harris, Hebbert and McKeller all gave evidence at the inquest supporting the fact that she'd been murdered. Dr Bond initially supported this conclusion. However, Anderson then intervened, and he is quoted as saying:"But that same afternoon Mr Bond went again to Poplar to make a more careful examination of the women's neck, and he returned to tell me that he had entirely altered his view of the case, and was satisfied that though death was due to strangulation, it was produced accidentally and not by homicidal violence." (See: Evans and Rumbellow, 2006.) Begg and Bennett also point to the fact that, in directing Dr Bond to make a further examination, Anderson "appeared to be wilfully pushing for a non-homicide verdict, as there were no signs of a struggle." (Begg and Bennett, 2012)

As noted in my previous post, I consider it unfortunate to say the least that, regarding Kelly, we are totally reliant on the post-mortem report of this somewhat controversial figure. And, of course, his views regarding the level of skill demonstrated by the killer of the C5 were that "In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any kind of person accustomed to cut up dead animals."

This view seems, once again, to be very much at odds with the opinions of his professional colleagues, in particular Dr Phillips, who seems to have been sidelined after indicating that Chapman's killer may have had some degree of medical expertise. I would also point out that it is a view very much at variance with the conclusions of Trevor Marriott's experts, who seemed to think that Chapman and Eddowes killer exhibited a great degree of skill, assuming that the body parts were removed by the killer: see Marriott, 2013).

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I'm actually becoming more convinced that Emma Smith should be included as a JtR victim. I think, as Tom Westcott's research has indicated, there is every reason to doubt her claim of being attacked by a gang, particularly when you consider that it took her some time to report the incident. Dr Haslip also pointed out that she was reluctant to give details of her attack, and it's worth noting that he subsequently told the press that he believed that Smith and Nichols were killed by the same person; surely indicating that he didn't accept her account. Inspector Reid was also of the same opinion, and he was the man in charge of the Smith murder investigation .I think it is therefore probable that she'd been soliciting but was unwilling to admit to it.

Of course, she had a blunt instrument inserted into her, rather than a knife. However, this would still amount to picquerismm which, has Batman has pointed out, is an incredibly rare signature characteristic. It's also worth noting that this blunt instrument was repetitively thrust deep inside of her, at various angles, and with great force: see Westcott (2014). Interestingly, there is the possibility that her assailant also used a knife; when asked by the coroner whether a knife had been used Dr Haslip replied: "She couldn't tell me whether it was a knife or what instrument had been used." Of course Keppel did not include Smith in the series, but that is probably because he accepted the orthodox view that she'd been attacked by a gang.

Consideration also needs to be given to the fact that serial sexual murderers are very unpredictable, and do not tend to leave specific signatures at every crime scene and, although their behaviour does tend to be thematically and behaviourally consistent, in most cases it changes or evolves (Shlesinger, 2010) In fact, in the Schlesinger study 70% of the offenders they studied behaved with one victim in a way that they didn't behave with any other victim, with typical experimentation including post-mortem genital mutilation and dismemberment.

Hi JG
Ive always considered Emma a possibility for a ripper victim-but only possibly and just barely.

Ive never really bought the idea that she may have lied about being attacked by a gang because she didn't want to admit that it was a single man during an act of prostitution. If it was a single man she could have just said it, without admitting to prostitution-kind of like Annie Millwood and Ada Wilson cases.

Post Mortem serial killers-these guys work alone. I do not believe in the history of serial homicide there is a case of this type of killer working in a group or even with another person. They're loners socially, and usually maintain a mask of normalness and being law abiding citizens. I also think they have a deep seated "embarrassment" for their fantasy and actions, which would prohibit them from admitting it and fulfilling it with other people.

Emma Smith has all the hallmarks of a gang attack, beaten up, sexually assaulted, random act, with an object used probably found near the scene.
A youth involved.

To my ears her story has the ring of truth.

And again-no knife. Even IF the ripper would associate with a gang, I think that more than likely there would have been a knife involved and she would have been cut.

Believe me, I know MO and sigs can evolve and change depending on the circumstances, but all things considered IMHO the ripper had such a strong fantasy and desire use his knife, that the lack of one used on Emma, with a gang or not, points away from the ripper. Especially since earlier attacks (Ada Wilson-possible, Annie Millwood-probable) were single attacks that involved a knife.

[John G]

Hi JG
Ive always considered Emma a possibility for a ripper victim-but only possibly and just barely.

Ive never really bought the idea that she may have lied about being attacked by a gang because she didn't want to admit that it was a single man during an act of prostitution. If it was a single man she could have just said it, without admitting to prostitution-kind of like Annie Millwood and Ada Wilson cases.

Post Mortem serial killers-these guys work alone. I do not believe in the history of serial homicide there is a case of this type of killer working in a group or even with another person. They're loners socially, and usually maintain a mask of normalness and being law abiding citizens. I also think they have a deep seated "embarrassment" for their fantasy and actions, which would prohibit them from admitting it and fulfilling it with other people.

Emma Smith has all the hallmarks of a gang attack, beaten up, sexually assaulted, random act, with an object used probably found near the scene.
A youth involved.

To my ears her story has the ring of truth.

And again-no knife. Even IF the ripper would associate with a gang, I think that more than likely there would have been a knife involved and she would have been cut.

Believe me, I know MO and sigs can evolve and change depending on the circumstances, but all things considered IMHO the ripper had such a strong fantasy and desire use his knife, that the lack of one used on Emma, with a gang or not, points away from the ripper. Especially since earlier attacks (Ada Wilson-possible, Annie Millwood-probable) were single attacks that involved a knife.

Hi Abby,

Yes, I must admit that I was very doubtful myself about including Smith as a possible victim, however, having read Tom Westcott's book I have to accept that he raises significant doubt about her story. I also find it interesting that both her doctor, Dr Haslip, and the investigating officer, Inspector Reid, considered her a Ripper victim.

Nonetheless, your points are clearly well made. And, in the interests of objectivity, it is worth pointing out that her friend, Margaret Hames, was also attacked on the same day by two youths-interestingly she was also violently assault the previous December, spending 20 days in the infirmary.

And then there's the coincidence that Malvina Haynes was also subjected to a violent attack in Whitechapel, near Leman Street Railway Station, on the same Bank Holiday- she was also treated by Dr Haslip. In fact, she suffered such serious head injuries that they would soon prove fatal.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Yes, I must admit that I was very doubtful myself about including Smith as a possible victim, however, having read Tom Westcott's book I have to accept that he raises significant doubt about her story. I also find it interesting that both her doctor, Dr Haslip, and the investigating officer, Inspector Reid, considered her a Ripper victim.

Nonetheless, your points are clearly well made. And, in the interests of objectivity, it is worth pointing out that her friend, Margaret Hames, was also attacked on the same day by two youths-interestingly she was also violently assault the previous December, spending 20 days in the infirmary.

And then there's the coincidence that Malvina Haynes was also subjected to a violent attack in Whitechapel, near Leman Street Railway Station, on the same Bank Holiday- she was also treated by Dr Haslip. In fact, she suffered such serious head injuries that they would soon prove fatal.

Thanks JC
I appreciate your objectivity and the interesting details you provided about the other attacks. seems to be some young thugs going around and brutally assaulting unfortunates that day!

[Batman]

Something new I think

Since y'all are on about the flaps it's unfair to not include Jackson in this discussion and the similarities in to the ripper victims :

"The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus. The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus, and part of the skin of the right buttock. These flaps accurately fitted together in the mid-line, and laterally corresponded to the incisions in the lower pieces of the trunk. The skin was fair, and the mons veneris was covered with light sandy hair. The upper part of the vagina was attached to the uterus; both ovaries and broad ligaments were present, and the posterior wall of the bladder. The uterus had been opened on the left side by a vertical cut, six inches long, through the left wall. The organ was much dilated the vessels on the inner surface large and open and the mucus membrane swollen and softened. The uterus measured 10in. long by 7.5 in. wide. The circumference of the os externum was 4in….

Rocky, you may like to know that there has been a follow-up to this. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7807&page=9

I have speculated that the reason why JtR is harvesting sexual parts of the body is to replace the parts of a corpse he has been putting together and maintaining through the torso murders.

This has exceptional explanatory power I believe. I have asked people if there is a reference to this before, if not, then its new. If not new, then I pass this idea to whomever came up with it before.

This explanation includes Jackson as a JtR victim. We have forensics to suggest a link, so its not just speculation without some evidence linking it.

Another thing is that the historical record for these offenders says this has happened many times before. Ed Gein. What I maybe unique is acquiring parts away from the same place the corpse is kept. Ed Gein brought his victims home intact. JtR did this but also harvested parts on the spot from his victims.

It also explains why he didn't seem to case what the first 3 canonical victims looked liked. Yet Eddowes and Kelly, who where better looking, had their faces slashed. I wonder if he was trying to take their face or parts of it or if he did this to say, if I can't have this part, no one will.

Anyhow it makes everything less of a mystery if one selects the above and opens up new lines of reasoning. It also tells us that his MO and signature is focused on harvesting sexual body parts.

[lynn cates]

part and parcel

Hello Batman.

". . . if I can't have this part, no one will."

Hmm, if Kate was REALLY a prostitute as you seem so dead certain she was, surely he could have ANY part he wanted, eh? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello Lynn,

I seem to remember that there was an earlier discussion about the fact that some of the cachous had spilled from Liz's hand. At the inquest Dr Blackwell made the following statement;

"I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from my hand."

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but might this explain the cachous that were in the gutter? If the packet wan't spilled during the assault, does this undermine the hypothesis of a frontal blitz attack, i.e. by BS man?

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, right on both counts. When the doctors found her, the cachous were as described, and none spilled.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

I seem to remember that there was an earlier discussion about the fact that some of the cachous had spilled from Liz's hand. At the inquest Dr Blackwell made the following statement;

"I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from my hand."

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but might this explain the cachous that were in the gutter? If the packet wan't spilled during the assault, does this undermine the hypothesis of a frontal blitz attack, i.e. by BS man?

Dr Blackwell may account for the cachous in the gutter, but Dr Phillips noticed them scattered all over the yard.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? -
(Dr Phillips)- Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard

[RockySullivan]

Rocky, you may like to know that there has been a follow-up to this. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7807&page=9

I have speculated that the reason why JtR is harvesting sexual parts of the body is to replace the parts of a corpse he has been putting together and maintaining through the torso murders.

This has exceptional explanatory power I believe. I have asked people if there is a reference to this before, if not, then its new. If not new, then I pass this idea to whomever came up with it before.

This explanation includes Jackson as a JtR victim. We have forensics to suggest a link, so its not just speculation without some evidence linking it.

Another thing is that the historical record for these offenders says this has happened many times before. Ed Gein. What I maybe unique is acquiring parts away from the same place the corpse is kept. Ed Gein brought his victims home intact. JtR did this but also harvested parts on the spot from his victims.

It also explains why he didn't seem to case what the first 3 canonical victims looked liked. Yet Eddowes and Kelly, who where better looking, had their faces slashed. I wonder if he was trying to take their face or parts of it or if he did this to say, if I can't have this part, no one will.

Anyhow it makes everything less of a mystery if one selects the above and opens up new lines of reasoning. It also tells us that his MO and signature is focused on harvesting sexual body parts.

Batty, the Frankenstein hypothesis is interesting...considering the Shelley connection...what would the killer use this creation for....er...pleasure?
One interesting thing is the whitehall torso was FULL of maggots! He held on to it for a long time...why?