Different Killers

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Would you agrees that, in relation to Eddowes, Dr Phillips may have been pressurized to avoid any suggestion that a medical man may have been involved?

Hi John.
I believe Phillips toned it down after the publicity over the supposed technique in evidence in the Chapman murder. But I also think he saw what the killer intended him to see in the method and skill applied to remove Eddowes kidney.

I certainly find it interesting that he doesn't give evidence at the inquest.

Phillips was attached to the Met. in the same way as Gordon-Brown was attached to the City. But that does not mean Phillips could not be called to give an opinion.
Why he didn't?, I do not know.

I also referred earlier to Swanson's report where he comments on Drs Phillips and Brown's opinions after the autopsy. They seem to suggest that just about anyone could have been responsible , from a slaughterman to a trained surgeon. That also indicates to me a possible conflict of opinion between the two medical professionals.

Today we might call it, 'damage control'. Tone it down, make only general statements. If the killer turns out to be a surgeon, they will handle it as and when it happens.
Until then offer no unnecessary publicity.

Interestingly, the eminent surgeon Sir James Ridson Bennett offered his two-pence worth on the 3rd Oct.

"I have no desire to promulgate any theory in reference to these murders. My purpose in writing to The Times the other day was simply to demonstrate the absurdity of the theory that the crimes were being committed for the purpose of supplying an American physiologist with uteruses."

"Since I wrote my letter to the Times I have received several communications in support of my view. One of these comes from the Bishop of Hertford, who agrees me that the theory of the American physiologist has no claims to credit. I wish to have it understood that my only desire is to remove from the public mind the false impression that has been made by the suggestion that a member of the medical profession is more or less responsible for these murders. I have never believed in that theory, and these two last murders confirm me in the opinion that they are the work of a man suffering from acute mania, to whom the ordinary rules of manner and procedure do not apply."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/north_eastern_daily_gazette/18881003.html

The good doctor managed to get his point across (in bold), using the American doctor theory as the means to raise the issue.

[lynn cates]

facts obliterate single killer hypothesis

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Yes, that is old news. But YOU said Chapman and EDDOWES.

Where was the killer during MJK? Safely caged.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

kidney

Hello John. Thanks.

"It also appears that Eddowes' uterus was removed in a different way to Chapman's."

Quite.

"However, I cannot rule out Trevor's argument that the organs were removed in the mortuary."

I agree--if you mean KIDNEY. That seems the one bit of precise work done in Kate's case. But the uterus? There was almost no way it could have been removed in Annie's case, given the facilities and personnel.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

I would never say, "Jehovah."

Hello CD. Thanks.

"And I have read "Green Eggs and Ham" but I don't bring it up on a site devoted to Jack the Ripper."

You just did--and for the SAME reason as I: as part of a response.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

medical

Hello Jon.

"But that does not mean Phillips could not be called to give an opinion.
Why he didn't, I do not know."

Perhaps he did, but NOT at inquest. Howard Brown posted a press cutting from early October, the gist of which was that Kate died by a different hand. The person/s making that pronouncement not identified.

It is interesting that, at least until sometime in October, the medical student Sanders was being sought. Reason seems obvious.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Yes, that is old news.

Of course it is old. Its 1888.

Chapman and Kellys abdominal flaps were both removed in 3 sections and the 3 parts posed. That is a very detailed signature.

Since you have your Chapman suspect under lock & key at the time of MJKs murder he is innocent of both.

What you have is exactly the same issue as the prosecutors did in Florence. No sooner had they put someone way for the crime (tried and convicted), the monster of Florence struck again. This happened no less than several times to several people charged and convicted. Same gun was used in each murder.

The 3 flap abdominal signature wound connects Chapman's killer to MJKs.

[Jon Guy]

Chapman and Kellys abdominal flaps were both removed in 3 sections and the 3 parts posed. That is a very detailed signature..

Absolutely.
What sort of copycat or imitator would pick up on this detail and carry it out in Millers Court ? Not everyone around here knows that detail, and we`ve been looking at the details for decades, and not just a month or so.

Not only is it another connection between the Chapman and Kelly murders, but realistically, it also rules out the copycat.

Since you have your Chapman suspect under lock & key at the time of MJKs murder he is innocent of both..

NOW that is old news ;-)

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

"It also appears that Eddowes' uterus was removed in a different way to Chapman's."

Quite.

"However, I cannot rule out Trevor's argument that the organs were removed in the mortuary."

I agree--if you mean KIDNEY. That seems the one bit of precise work done in Kate's case. But the uterus? There was almost no way it could have been removed in Annie's case, given the facilities and personnel.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

As Trevor has pointed out, his experts are firmly of the opinion that none of the organs, either in relation to Chapman or Eddowes, were removed at the scene of crime.

[Harry D]

Hello Lynn,

As Trevor has pointed out, his experts are firmly of the opinion that none of the organs, either in relation to Chapman or Eddowes, were removed at the scene of crime.

It's funny how the experts often seem to corroborate the opinion of the guy who hired them, eh?

It's almost as if they've been led to that conclusion to begin with.

[John G]

Absolutely.
What sort of copycat or imitator would pick up on this detail and carry it out in Millers Court ? Not everyone around here knows that detail, and we`ve been looking at the details for decades, and not just a month or so.

Not only is it another connection between the Chapman and Kelly murders, but realistically, it also rules out the copycat.



NOW that is old news ;-)

Hi Jon,

It does seem that far less skill was apparent in Kelly's case, as opposed to Chapman or Eddowes. I find this somewhat perplexing, especially when you consider the fact that Kelly was killed indoors, and therefore her killer would have had far more time to take a more methodical, less frenzied, approach. Presumably he would also have the advantage of better lighting conditions.

Of course, these arguments are somewhat negated if you accept that the body parts were removed elsewhere than the crime scene.

Then there's the fact that Kelly may have been asleep when attacked; that suggests that her killer exhibited a high level of self restraint prior to the assault, which is difficult to reconcile with the frenzied nature of her murder.

However, as I have noted before ritualistic behaviour in sexual homicides can evolve or become more elaborate: one offender progressed from cutting, to decapitation to evisceration; whilst another began with postmortem genital mutilation before progressing to dismemberment : see Schlesinger, 2010. Perhaps we shouldn't therefore rule out a link with the Torso Murders!

[Jon Guy]

My difficulty is that eviscerating Chapman and Eddowes with surgical precision would surely take a lot more time than, say, the more frenzied, haphazard approach we see with Kelly. And, as you suggest, time is clearly a very crucial factor with Chapman and Eddowes.

Was the killer more frenzied in the case of Kelly, John ?

Her throat is cut around in a circular fashion like Chapman`s. he has even removed both her breasts in the same circular fashion. He`s burrowed up towards her heart from the abdomen and removed the heart from the pericardium.

Yes, it`s a mess in there but no more frenzied than the slashing to Nichols abdomen, or Eddowes face.

[lynn cates]

flaps

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Chapman and Kellys abdominal flaps were both removed in 3 sections. . ."

Can you show me a drawing of what this means? No one has ever stated what precisely is going on. It may be insignificant--or not.

". . . and the 3 parts posed."

Posed? Nonsense. Where on earth did this absurd claim come from?

"Since you have your Chapman suspect under lock & key at the time of MJKs murder he is innocent of both."

Innocent of "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Whom?

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, but how could one do that (and whom? and why?) in that tiny shed?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, but how could one do that (and whom? and why?) in that tiny shed?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Dr Phillips did not seem to discount the possibility:

Coroner: " You do not think they could have been lost accidentally on the transit of the body to the mortuary?"

Dr Phillips:" I was not present at the transit. I carefully closed up the clothes of the women. Some portions had been excised."

[lynn cates]

remark

Hello John. Thanks.

Very well, but that leaves motive.

The remark about "excised" pertains to the fact that the mortuary attendants had cut her clothes.

Cheers.
LC