Different Killers

[John G]

The A-Z splits it and references Nick Warren too. I go with Sugden and Warren on this. I don't think anyone who has spent time on Bond's account of the autopsy is very impressed, especially since the recovery of the MJK crime scene photographs. There is good reason to infer that the medical skill aspect was played down around the time of the Eddowes murder inquest (they strike the word medical when a Freudian slip is said!) but even Dr. Brown included a medical student as a suspect in later life. For me, MJK shows signs of someone with good anatomical knowledge and experience with human anatomy in some capacity, like a student/feldsher. Nick Warren suggested that Dr. Bond who did the pathology on the torso murders and saw medical skill may have believed that the mutilations were a failed attempt at amputation – therefore no medical skill. Yet public display is part of the signature of JtR and dismemberment in the torso case seems to be for transportation purposes. Warren's demonstration of the heart removal is very convincing.

Does Warren suggest that the removal of Kelly's heart suggested a high degree of surgical skill? Trevor's experts seem to agree with Dr Bond that no skill was demonstrated in relation to Kelly.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

As I noted earlier in relation to Eddowes, Trevor's experts seem to think that there was, if anything, a greater level of anatomical/ surgical skill demonstrated than in the case of Chapman. I also believe that, with Eddowes, Dr Philips may have been pressurised to tone down his report. A greater problem is MJK.

This might sound like a strange question but did the killer need to be skilled with MJK? Think about it, a killer who's operating outdoors, who could be spotted by a passer-by at any moment, can't afford to be sloppy, he needs to make every slice count. If he doesn't, he could get caught or botch what he's after. While in Miller's Court he doesn't have that problem. He has privacy and with it the luxury of being able to indulge his fantasy of dehumanizing the victim to his heart's content.

[Batman]

Does Warren suggest that the removal of Kelly's heart suggested a high degree of surgical skill? Trevor's experts seem to agree with Dr Bond that no skill was demonstrated in relation to Kelly.

I don't know about Trevor's experts, whom also seem to suggest that there is some reason why their wouldn't be any arterial spray thus explaining the lack of blood down their fronts and I find that also hard to accept without reference to something published academically.

Warren doesn't say surgical skill but doesn't omit it either. Just skill in addition to anatomical knowledge. A medical student could acquire it. So would have a feldsher. I don't think for one moment Warren thinks a butcher could have done it. Which is the point of his demonstration.

Although there is overlap between MO and signature, it is obvious that signatures are the overkill feature which makes these murders different from other homicides. Since we have pathology reports indicating death due to the left artery being severed and as Harry noted, in the same way, this is very much MO, which can vary, hence any problems with variation in the neck, are dispensed with due to this fact that has history to support it, whereas, the alternative doesn't and appeals to unique coincidences, which as noted, are simply unprecidented.

PS - The FBI profilers you reference accept the C5.

[John G]

I don't know about Trevor's experts, whom also seem to suggest that there is some reason why their wouldn't be any arterial spray thus explaining the lack of blood down their fronts and I find that also hard to accept without reference to something published academically.

Warren doesn't say surgical skill but doesn't omit it either. Just skill in addition to anatomical knowledge. A medical student could acquire it. So would have a feldsher. I don't think for one moment Warren thinks a butcher could have done it. Which is the point of his demonstration.

Although there is overlap between MO and signature, it is obvious that signatures are the overkill feature which makes these murders different from other homicides. Since we have pathology reports indicating death due to the left artery being severed and as Harry noted, in the same way, this is very much MO, which can vary, hence any problems with variation in the neck, are dispensed with due to this fact that has history to support it, whereas, the alternative doesn't and appeals to unique coincidences, which as noted, are simply unprecidented.

PS - The FBI profilers you reference accept the C5.

Signature is a complex concept. It can encompass features like overkill, but also ritual, if the ritualistic elements are unique (please see my earlier post, 1109). Ritualistic elements can evolve or become more elaborate (reference my earlier post, 1109)

The difficulty I have with Keppel is that he references secondary sources, some from over a decade ago. He also fails to give any consideration at all to an analysis of the anantomical skill shown, which I find puzzling. I mean if you were trying to link two murders and in one murder the killer demonstrated the skills of a top class surgeon, whilst the other suggested the skills of a pig butcher, you would surely start to wonder if they were committed by the same person. That's why I would rule out, for instance, two killers working together-one skilled, the other not -or gang related activity. That might also go some way to explaining all of the other rare crimes that we see over the same short period. I think perhaps the Keppel article was a bit rushed, otherwise he would surely have assessed the contemporary medical reports and even commissioned experts of his own.

[John G]

This might sound like a strange question but did the killer need to be skilled with MJK? Think about it, a killer who's operating outdoors, who could be spotted by a passer-by at any moment, can't afford to be sloppy, he needs to make every slice count. If he doesn't, he could get caught or botch what he's after. While in Miller's Court he doesn't have that problem. He has privacy and with it the luxury of being able to indulge his fantasy of dehumanizing the victim to his heart's content.

My difficulty is that eviscerating Chapman and Eddowes with surgical precision would surely take a lot more time than, say, the more frenzied, haphazard approach we see with Kelly. And, as you suggest, time is clearly a very crucial factor with Chapman and Eddowes.

[Batman]

Organ harvesting is the phrase he uses to connect them with piquerism. He references the areas of no medical skill mostly so doesn't address it beyond this.

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello Batman.

"Chapman and Eddowes throat were cut to the vertebrae as noted by spinal notching."

Please be aware that Polly and Annie evinced spinal notching; Kate was cartilage ONLY.

(By the way, look at how the knife was held as it cut Kate. Odd, indeed.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

evading

Hello Harry.

"and disembowel her without anyone hearing a sound."

Yes, and evade Ed Watkins--knowing both his beat AND that he was walking backward that night.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

compare and contrast

Hello John.

"As I noted earlier in relation to Eddowes, Trevor's experts seem to think that there was, if anything, a greater level of anatomical/surgical skill demonstrated than in the case of Chapman."

Let's distinguish.

Surgical skill (ie, the cuts)--Annie, hands down.

Anatomical knowledge (ie, technique for entering the body cavity)--Kate, by a mile.

The first looks like someone who used a knife at work but was not so good at human organ removal, or at least, with correct procedures.

The second looks like someone who had NEVER wielded a knife but who had consulted a surgeon or text on technique.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

habitual

Hello Harry.

"This might sound like a strange question but did the killer need to be skilled with MJK?"

But skills are HABITUAL. When my son was a young lad, and I needed to reprimand him, it sounded like a college lecture with main points and counterarguments.

Are you seriously suggesting that an experienced knifeman could turn it off, just like that?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

3 pieces sends multiple killer hypothesis to pieces

Found it. Sugden again

Chapman
Inspector Chandler - I at once proceeded to No. 29 Hanbury Street, and in the back yard found a woman lying on her back, dead, left arm resting on left breast, legs drawn up, abducted, small intestines and flap of the abdomen lying on right side, above right shoulder, attached by a cord with the rest of the intestines inside the body; two flaps of skin from the lower part of the abdomen lying in a large quantity of blood above the left shoulder; throat cut deeply from left and back in a jagged manner right around throat.

3 abdominal flaps.

Kelly
Dr. Bond - The skin & tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps.

Sorry Lynn but looks like you got the wrong guy for Chapman. Where was he during the murder of MJK?

[Wickerman]

Organ harvesting is the phrase he uses to connect them with piquerism. He references the areas of no medical skill mostly so doesn't address it beyond this.

It is also possible that any doctor who carries so much influence, must be very careful not to implicate fellow surgeons without absolute proof.

This was a very class-conscious society, his superior - the chief Surgeon, MacKellar, may not take kindly to rash conclusions casting a cloud of suspicion over their profession.

[John G]

Hello John.

"As I noted earlier in relation to Eddowes, Trevor's experts seem to think that there was, if anything, a greater level of anatomical/surgical skill demonstrated than in the case of Chapman."

Let's distinguish.

Surgical skill (ie, the cuts)--Annie, hands down.

Anatomical knowledge (ie, technique for entering the body cavity)--Kate, by a mile.

The first looks like someone who used a knife at work but was not so good at human organ removal, or at least, with correct procedures.

The second looks like someone who had NEVER wielded a knife but who had consulted a surgeon or text on technique.

Cheers.
LC

It also appears that eddowes' uterus was removed in a different way to Chapman's. (Marriott, 2013) However, I cannot rule out Trevor's argument that the organs were removed in the mortuary. His experts were certainly of the opinion that it would have been virtually impossible, even for a trained surgeon, to remove Chapman's and Eddowes' organs within the time frame, especially taking into account the lighting conditions.

[John G]

It is also possible that any doctor who carries so much influence, must be very careful not to implicate fellow surgeons without absolute proof.

This was a very class-conscious society, his superior - the chief Surgeon, MacKellar, may not take kindly to rash conclusions casting a cloud of suspicion over their profession.

Hi Jon,

Would you agrees that, in relation to Eddowes, Dr Phillips may have been pressurized to avoid any suggestion that a medical man may have been involved? I certainly find it interesting that he doesn't give evidence at the inquest. I also referred earlier to Swanson's report where he comments on Drs Phillips and Brown's opinions after the autopsy. They seem to suggest that just about anyone could have been responsible , from a slaughterman to a trained surgeon. That also indicates to me a possible conflict of opinion between the two medical professionals.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

There is one thing you are overlooking--I do THIS for a living. I have actually read:

1. Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy.

2. Spinoza, The Ethics.

3. Leibniz, Discourse on Metaphysics; Monadology; New essays Concerning the Human Understanding..

4. Locke, Essays Concerning the Human Understanding.

5. Berkeley, The Principles of Human Knowledge; Three Dialogues between Hylas and Philonous.

6. Hume, Treatise of Human Nature; Enquiry Concerning the Human Understanding.

7. Kant, Critique of Pure reason; Grundlagen.

Hence, this trumps ANY secondary works--especially by those who have not read/understood them.

I believe it was Pablo Picasso whom, after being chastised for his art by the communist party, retorted, "I am not used to taking painting lessons from ignorant party hacks."

Cheers.
LC

And I have read "Green Eggs and Ham" but I don't bring it up on a site devoted to Jack the Ripper.

c.d.