Different Killers

[lynn cates]

Got a light?

Hello Rocky.

". . . is there such a thing as a pipe knife? A blade concealed within the stem of a pipe. . ."

Not of which I am aware. Just, too, it is difficult to light one's knife.

Cheers.
LC

[Amanda]

Pipe knife..

Hi Lynn/ Rocky,

I think the nearest thing you would get to a pipe knife is the 18th/19th century Chinese knives which were concealed inside a small bamboo 'scabbard'.
Very sharp, could be considered a lethal weapon but unlikely to have found it's way into 1888 Whitechapel.

Amanda

[Batman]

'Those' - Corroboration

Hello Batman. Thanks.

But only half a week later, that same paper reported that the police at Leman were skeptical.

I think this overwhelming collapses the idea Schwartz was telling the truth. (Sorry, can't resist a good mutatis mutandis.)

Cheers.
LC

The Star, MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888

Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.


''Those'' is plural. So more than just Schwartz saw it. That's corroboration. Dismiss Schwartz, you dismiss the 'others' too.

The next day, not half a week later, the same paper describes arrests and doubt stories etc., but just over two weeks later we have the resolution. On the 19th October 1888, Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,’

Then we have the official records showing they trusted Schwartz throughout the entire investigation.

'Those' means corroboration. We have others describing something similar to what Schwartz saw.

It doesn't matter if we doubt Schwartz's story as the above demonstrates other people are confirming his story. That is all we need to put to rest the idea his claims are not corroborated and puts a serious dent in the idea he made it all up doesn't it?

[Batman]

Hello Rocky.

". . . is there such a thing as a pipe knife? A blade concealed within the stem of a pipe. . ."

Not of which I am aware. Just, too, it is difficult to light one's knife.

Cheers.
LC

Carrying a knife with a pipe is normal to cut your bacco block and scoop out the bowl.

[John G]

Crazy Theory-or is it?

Okay how about this for a theory. Stride arranges to meet Joseph Lave at the club. They arrange to meet by the club gates, and he therefore exits the club at around 12:40, as per his statement. He then walks up to the street, which is supported by his own evidence, to look for Stride but she's not there. He returns to the club after a short while, assuming he's been stood up.

Maybe this wasn't a firm arrangement; Lave has only been in the country a short while so they couldn't have known each other long. However, Stride does arrive but a few minutes later, perhaps having been delayed by the man James Brown might have seen her with. She waits a short while, but eventually realizes that she must have just missed Lave.

However, she really fancies a night of drinking and dancing so she tries the front door of the club but finds it locked (just as Morris Eagle did a few minutes earlier). Nonetheless, she's aware of the side door so she walks down the dark passageway, casually eating the cachous- maybe she's been drinking and she wants to disguise the smell of the alcohol on her breath- only to be stealthy followed by her opportunist killer; this could even be the man that either James Brown or PC Smith saw her with and, after failing to persuade Stride to go with him, he's been quietly stalking her waiting for an opportunity to strike.

Stride hear's footsteps behind her; she can't make out who it is- Lave said the passageway was so dark he struggled to find the door to get back in-but she's unconcerned, assuming that it may be Lave or another club member who can let her in (she continues to eat the cachous).

She turns, and walks toward the man. He suddenly stops, waiting for Stride to come to him. However, the appalling lighting conditions means that they are both struggling to work out their relative positions. Stride whispers, "Joseph, is that you?" The man doesn't answer but it enables him to better fix her position. Stride, now more uncertain, suddenly stops. She freezes in fright and stops talking, instinctively realizing something isn't quite right, an impression reinforced by the menacing atmosphere conjured up by the eerie, darkened passage and the man's failure to respond. Because it is still pitch black dark the man still isn't quite sure where Stride is. Nonetheless, he quietly advances eventually realizing that he's just walked past his intended victim. He quickly adjusts his position and creeps up behind her, draws the knife, drags her to the ground and slits her throat.

Afterwards Lave informs Morris of the meeting but swears he had nothing to do with her death. Morris believes him- why else would he confess to the assignation when he could have just kept quiet. However, they're both concerned that he could become a suspect- maybe they've been seen out together in public. Morris therefore hatches a scheme, involving Scwartz, to confuse any police enquiry and to try and deflect there attention towards another mythical suspect. (okay, I agree that this last part is really staring to sound crazy!)

All comments gratefully accepted!

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Well, what's wrong with Liz coming up to the club just as a member is going home? They chat a moment and each goes his/her separate ways?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

There is certainly more than one answer to that scenario.
I'm just not so sure how many strangers will stop and talk, at midnight, especially with a woman.
There are few reasons for a woman to be dressed up, and out alone at that hour, and Stride was not a nurse, nor a midwife.

[lynn cates]

pleurisy

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Here's what we--oops!--I think. It MIGHT be corroboration, PROVIDED you spell out precisely whom the "those" were.


But right now, this is just speculation.

"Then we have the official records showing they trusted Schwartz throughout the entire investigation."

Reference, please.

Finally, the "AF" story came out about a week or so later. Why not a SINGLE word about Schwartz?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Lave

Hello John. Thanks for that.

I have long suspected that one or more of the club members knew more than was said.

Of course, Lave seems to have contacted the press first.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

problem with supreme executive power

Hello Jon. Thanks.

But if the chap were an apostle for the anarcho-syndicalist commune and who opposed repression? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Here's what we--oops!--I think. It MIGHT be corroboration, PROVIDED you spell out precisely whom the "those" were.


But right now, this is just speculation.

"Then we have the official records showing they trusted Schwartz throughout the entire investigation."

Reference, please.

Finally, the "AF" story came out about a week or so later. Why not a SINGLE word about Schwartz?

Cheers.
LC

A-Z on Schwartz covers how the investigation believed him throughout. Swanson isn't speculating on Pipeman. We don't have to name others, but it explained Swanson's position at the least. Finally Schwartz info was suppressed as was Lawende for the same reason. To keep these details for the investigation which we know didn't always work.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks for that.

I have long suspected that one or more of the club members knew more than was said.

Of course, Lave seems to have contacted the press first.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I've been thinking about that. After confiding in Morris, and convincing him of his innocence, Morris advises him to go to the police and tell them exactly what happened, i.e. he didn't see anything, leaving out the bit about the Stride meeting (he might inform Lave that plenty of people were aware that he left the club around 12:35 and came back at about 12:40- if the police find out about this before he comes forward he's sure to become the prime suspect)

Now this is where I need to be a bit creative! He further informs Joseph that he knows a man called Israel; he's always short of money, none too scrupulous and a bit stupid! He suggests to Lave that Stride's killer is unlikely to be found but, as they both left the club at around the time she may have been killed, suspicion could fall on them. They need to create an alternative suspect, particularly as the police may subsequently discover that Lave knew Stride.

He therefore suggests a scheme. He'll approach Israel with a plan to make some easy money. He gives him the story about BS man and tells him to go the Star, who are offering money to anyone with information, with the account. However, to give further credibility to the story, he advises he go to the police first. Scwartz readily agrees, however, his Police and Star accounts differ because he can't resist embellishing and, being a bit stupid, he forgets certain elements of the story!

Does this sound too mad? Well, probably not quite as crazy as some theories!

[John G]

The Star, MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888

Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.


''Those'' is plural. So more than just Schwartz saw it. That's corroboration. Dismiss Schwartz, you dismiss the 'others' too.

The next day, not half a week later, the same paper describes arrests and doubt stories etc., but just over two weeks later we have the resolution. On the 19th October 1888, Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,’

Then we have the official records showing they trusted Schwartz throughout the entire investigation.

'Those' means corroboration. We have others describing something similar to what Schwartz saw.

It doesn't matter if we doubt Schwartz's story as the above demonstrates other people are confirming his story. That is all we need to put to rest the idea his claims are not corroborated and puts a serious dent in the idea he made it all up doesn't it?

Hi Batman,

My problem is that if "others" witnessed the altercation, who were these people? Why aren't they referred to in official police reports? Why didn't they appear at the inquest? And more crucially, why didn't any of these additional witnesses take the opportunity to make some easy money by selling their story to the Star?

[lynn cates]

suppressed

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Obviously, Swanson seems to have accepted his story. But what, really, does that get us more than the Leman coppers NOT accepting it? It's like saying Batman accepts it but Cates does not.

Regarding Lawende: surely he was at inquest? Not sure how that is suppressed?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello John. Thanks.

Not bad at all.

I feel that, after the going over during the initial investigation, Wess, Eygle, Dimshits (or some combination of them) decided to "make assurance doubly sure." After a couple days investigation, the Leman lads figured it out with, "'Ere now, what's all this then?" This was then leaked to the press. Swanson, who was aware of the story, thought otherwise ("Fred, you see what the Leman lads think. Did Schwartz seem to be lying?" "No.")

Rather simple and, quite frankly, understandable all around.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello John.

"My problem is that if "others" witnessed the altercation, who were these people? Why aren't they referred to in official police reports? Why didn't they appear at the inquest? And more crucially, why didn't any of these additional witnesses take the opportunity to make some easy money by selling their story to the Star?"

Bingo.

Cheers.
LC