Different Killers

[Jon Guy]

I know it is difficult accept that Stride was not murdered by the same hand. But everything about her murder is so different from all of the others.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What was so different about her murder, Trevor ?

[John G]

The problem of the cachous

I really feel that Lynn has raised an important point about the cachous. For me, what does seemed to have happened is that she was attacked from behind whilst eating the cachous.

The problem is that this raises significant issues for the argument that this was a domestic murder, such as a crime passionnel. Thus, Stride seems to have been taken completely by surprise, totally oblivious of the danger that she was in. She even seemed confident, and relaxed enough to turn her back on her killer and to take out and eat the cachous.

But, as I've argued before, if this was just a common domestic murder, wouldn't you have expected that some sort of heated exchange, or argument, such as with a frustrated lover, would have proceeded the assault? And, if so, why was she apparently so relaxed and unconcerned afterwards, that she turned her back on her killer and started eating the cachous?

In fact, on a note of controversy, isn't slitting the throat of a victim from behind, taking them unawares, oblivious of the dangers, typical of the MO of whoever killed Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes?

Of course, this type of assault would tend to rule out BS man, as he had clearly shown himself to be a possible threat. Could Lave have killed her. Timings are an issue here. He admitted that he went outside for some fresh air, but the textbooks don't seem to agree when that was. Some say, 12:30-12:40, others suggest 12:40 to 12:45.

Of course, there is the problem that he wasn't seen by Eagle, who returned to the club between 12:35 and 12:40, or by Fanny Mortimer, who claimed to be on her doorstep fro much of the time.

And then there is the problem of just when Stride died. Edward Spooner claimed that blood was still gushing from her throat when he arrived after 1:00am. That suggests to me that she probably died close to the time that her body was discovered by Diemshutz. Lave was living at the club, although I'm not sure he had his own room. Could he have left unobserved, and then returned much later than he claimed, perhaps telling club members that he had gone to his room upon his return, which would explain why he wasn't noticed earlier?

I don't think the fact that he gave an account to the press is too much of a problem. Presumably journalists would have descended on the club, following the double event, perhaps offering money for information. As Lave admitted to going outside it would have seemed strange if he'd declined an opportunity to make easy money, and is claim not to have seen anything clearly didn't risk implicating him.

On a somewhat fanciful note, could Lave be JtR? Well, as he admitted going into the street I suppose it's possible he could have come across Stride soliciting, assuming she was, and enticed her into Dutfield's Yard. At least this would explain the lack of an adequately sized knife as, under this scenario, he wasn't intending to kill; he'd gone out for some fresh air!

It could also explain the failure to attempt mutilations.He could have avoided getting blood on himself when cutting her throat, but clearly not whilst mutilating. And in these circumstances, he would have a lot of explaining to do upon his return to the club, especially when a dead body was subsequently found outside!

However, I don't see him taking the risk of sneaking off again and sneaking back afterwards. Mind you, given all the witnesses who seemed to have noticed very little, Eagle, Mortimer, etc maybe it wouldn't have been too greater risk after all. But, no, clearly the idea is completely ludicrous!

[Trevor Marriott]

What was so different about her murder, Trevor ?

Time
Place
Location
weapon used
absence of mutilations

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

Time

12.45 - same time as McKenzie was murdered.

Place

A dark passageway next to a club, as opposed to Eddowes when it was a dark passageway opposite a club.

Location

?
I don`t follow what is different about the St George in the East locale as opposed to Bucks Row or Mitre Square ?

weapon used

A very sharp knife ?

absence of mutilations

Yes, the absence of mutilation is different.

[Batman]

Time
Place
Location
weapon used
absence of mutilations

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor that's 4 points, not 5 and you haven't explained any of them.

Saying time isn't an explanation. Eddowes died shortly after.
Saying Place isn't an explanation.
Saying Location (the same thing) isn't an explanation.
Saying Weapon used isn't an explanation especially given knives where used in both.
Absense of mutilation isn't an explanation if the killer was disturbed (of which there is plenty evidence for between Schwartz and Diemschutz). Do you really think JtR would continue to mutilate if people can watch him or what???

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor that's 4 points, not 5 and you haven't explained any of them.

Saying time isn't an explanation. Eddowes died shortly after.
Saying Place isn't an explanation.
Saying Location (the same thing) isn't an explanation.
Saying Weapon used isn't an explanation especially given knives where used in both.
Absense of mutilation isn't an explanation if the killer was disturbed (of which there is plenty evidence for between Schwartz and Diemschutz). Do you really think JtR would continue to mutilate if people can watch him or what???

Well you anyone else can form your own opinions, which you are full entitled to do. However like I have said before Ripperologists have a habit of only accepting facts if they sit well with their own beliefs !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Trevor that's 4 points, not 5 and you haven't explained any of them.

Saying time isn't an explanation. Eddowes died shortly after.
Saying Place isn't an explanation.
Saying Location (the same thing) isn't an explanation.
Saying Weapon used isn't an explanation especially given knives where used in both.
Absense of mutilation isn't an explanation if the killer was disturbed (of which there is plenty evidence for between Schwartz and Diemschutz). Do you really think JtR would continue to mutilate if people can watch him or what???

Hi Batman,

Do you feel the evidence points to Stride's killer being interrupted by Diemshutz? I mean, Edward Spooner said that there was blood still gushing from her neck when he'd arrived, and that may well have been as late as 1:05.

I agree that place is not really an issue, regarding riskiness of venue. All the evidence suggests that Berner Street itself was fairly, if not very, quiet at the time. Lave said he saw no one during his stroll, and Mortimer saw only Goldstein, and she may have been outside for almost half an hour.

Then there is the fact that, of members of the public, only Spooner seems to have responded to the cries of "murder" and "police" by Eagle et al. This seems to support Dr Philips' argument that this was not the sort of neighbourhood where the locals were likely to respond to cries of help.

Obviously, Dutfield's Yard presented a risk because of the presence of the club. However, it seemed to be cloaked in near pitch-black darkness, which clearly would have given the killer an element of protection.

Of course, it is often forgotten that Hanbury Street was risky, as Chapman may well have been killed in broad daylight, near to the time people were leaving for work. And, of course, Mitre Square was regularly patrolled by two police officers, and was not as dark as Dutfield's Yard.

I agree with your earlier point about strategy. As I've mentioned a number of times, Stride was killed in such a way that avoided arterial spray, i.e. whilst laying down, or with the scarf used as a ligature. A similar strategy is apparent in the murders of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and possibly Kelly. At least it is suggestive of an experienced killer, or one that has learned from past mistakes.

[Batman]

Well you anyone else can form your own opinions, which you are full entitled to do. However like I have said before Ripperologists have a habit of only accepting facts if they sit well with their own beliefs !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor you didn't explain anything.

EXPLANATION - make (an idea or situation) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts.


You gave no details at all. What you said is full of ambiguity because you gave no details.

For example, what's the difference between a location and a place exactly?

I don't hold to any named suspect like you so in terms of belief, you have much more to loose than I. Heck you have books with your name on it out there meaning you are committed to your view.

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

Do you feel the evidence points to Stride's killer being interrupted by Diemshutz?

The evidence points to Schwartz and the Lipski comment to scare Schwartz off (which worked). Not chancing that Schwartz hasn't gone for the police or help, he drags her a few feet (mud caked on one side of her jacket - pathology report) kills her (so he can't be identified) and gets out of there.

I mean, Edward Spooner said that there was blood still gushing from her neck when he'd arrived, and that may well have been as late as 1:05.

Spooner based his times of what time the pubs close. Spooner believed that he had first arrived at Dutfield's Yard at "25 minutes to 1 for example. So Spooner's timing is doubted.

Obviously, Dutfield's Yard presented a risk because of the presence of the club. However, it seemed to be cloaked in near pitch-black darkness, which clearly would have given the killer an element of protection. Of course, it is often forgotten that Hanbury Street was risky, as Chapman may well have been killed in broad daylight, near to the time people were leaving for work. And, of course, Mitre Square was regularly patrolled by two police officers, and was not as dark as Dutfield's Yard.

The neighbour in Hanbury street heard a woman say 'no' before slumping against the fence. All he had to do was stick his head over the low fence and he would have seen the murderer. That's the sort of risk JtR took.

I agree with your earlier point about strategy. As I've mentioned a number of times, Stride was killed in such a way that avoided arterial spray, i.e. whilst laying down, or with the scarf used as a ligature. A similar strategy is apparent in the murders of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and possibly Kelly. At least it is suggestive of an experienced killer, or one that has learned from past mistakes.

Which is what Baxter said.

You might like this -> http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8755

[Azarna]

Hi Batman,

Of course, it is often forgotten that Hanbury Street was risky, as Chapman may well have been killed in broad daylight, near to the time people were leaving for work. And, of course, Mitre Square was regularly patrolled by two police officers, and was not as dark as Dutfield's Yard.

I have always imagined that Jack was very much an opportunist. I know it is fashionable to think of him timing policemen's beats and plotting his getaway routes etc, but I tend to think it was more of a spur of the moment thing.

He is alone with a prostitute, they are in a location that seems safe enough right now, the urge is on him, quick.. go for it.

Perhaps the risk of being caught added to the excitement. Perhaps he really didn't care for some reason.

Stride could have been the one bad call and he was nearly caught. The rest of the times he was very lucky indeed.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Batman;332901]Trevor you didn't explain anything.

EXPLANATION - make (an idea or situation) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts.


You gave no details at all. What you said is full of ambiguity because you gave no details.

For example, what's the difference between a location and a place exactly?

Location = South of the Whitechapel Road

Place=A murder site South of The Whitechapel Road almost on the public footpath at a time not consistent with other murders. With members of the public and club members being in close proximity, which does nothing for your geoprofiling I would suggest

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

I have always imagined that Jack was very much an opportunist. I know it is fashionable to think of him timing policemen's beats and plotting his getaway routes etc, but I tend to think it was more of a spur of the moment thing.

He is alone with a prostitute, they are in a location that seems safe enough right now, the urge is on him, quick.. go for it.

Perhaps the risk of being caught added to the excitement. Perhaps he really didn't care for some reason.

Stride could have been the one bad call and he was nearly caught. The rest of the times he was very lucky indeed.

Hi Azarna,

I thinks this is a very good post. I certainly think that he could have been an opportunist, particularly when you consider the fact that most of the murder sites carried an element of risk. And, as I've argued before, a crime of opportunism may explain the Stride murder- wrong type of knife, possibly riskier location etc.

[Batman]

There is nothing preventing criminals from crossing a road.

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;332908]

Location = South of the Whitechapel Road

Place=A murder site South of The Whitechapel Road almost on the public footpath at a time not consistent with other murders. With members of the public and club members being in close proximity, which does nothing for your geoprofiling I would suggest

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, in geographical profiling, a criminal radiates out from a central point to try to hide their location, but creates a triangulation which reveals an area where the central point is, called the hot zone.

There is nothing preventing criminals from crossing a road.

Whitechapel road is a diagonal. So a north and south division is skewed from the horizontal by nearly 45 degrees!

If you draw a line between Stride and Eddowes it is almost exactly horizontal. Stride is very far from Whitechapel road. However Eddowes isn't. She is just barely north of whitechapel road, yet both are on the same horizontal, just not parrell to Whitechapel road. So its not as far south at all as you would claim because so is Eddowes if that's the case.

[John G]

Hi Batman,

I still feel that Edward Spooner is a very valuable witness when considering likely time of death. You're right that he seriously underestimated how late it was, however, there is clearly no doubt he was at the murder scene and it had to be after 1:00am

[chrismasonic]

You don't have to 'be there' observing anything to obtain a fact.
Observation is subject to its own problems hence why you do the pathology. Just read a little science. They had this figured out by the start of the 1800.

are you really saying that 1888 pathology is infallible?