Different Killers

[chrismasonic]

maybe each of these murders started and stopped because the intended victim in each case was dead...task accomplished...

there doesn't need to be escalation...

I really don't know why the multiple killer theory is getting scoffed at...as if the exclusive and elusive loner version has more credibility...

each if these murders has a well documented story leading up to it...and in some cases a very small window for your canonical ripper to swoop in and do his deeds...

the different descriptions of the suspects are various but this is often ignored...

[Wickerman]

the different descriptions of the suspects are various but this is often ignored...

Which is a reasonable indication that the actual killer was not seen by anyone.
The suspect seen at the nearest time to the accepted time of death was about fifteen minutes at Mitre Sq. and Berner St. A lot can happen in fifteen minutes in these small enclosed environments. The same could be said for Chapman, and nobody saw anyone with Nichols, and Kelly's time of death was never firmly established.

The way is wide open for the actual killer to have appeared on the scene as much as ten minutes before any of the killings occurred.
Nothing unbelievable about that.

[pinkmoon]

It is quite possible that someone did see something very suspicious shortly before after or maybe even during one of the murders but did not come forward.

[Harry D]

Which is a reasonable indication that the actual killer was not seen by anyone.
The suspect seen at the nearest time to the accepted time of death was about fifteen minutes at Mitre Sq. and Berner St. A lot can happen in fifteen minutes in these small enclosed environments. The same could be said for Chapman, and nobody saw anyone with Nichols, and Kelly's time of death was never firmly established.

The way is wide open for the actual killer to have appeared on the scene as much as ten minutes before any of the killings occurred.
Nothing unbelievable about that.

And that's besides the fact that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Try to remember all the passers-by you see the next time you're on a night out. Only a handful had good reason for paying attention to the victims (Schwartz, for instance). In spite of this, there are still some common traits between the accounts.

[Wickerman]

And that's besides the fact that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Try to remember all the passers-by you see the next time you're on a night out. Only a handful had good reason for paying attention to the victims (Schwartz, for instance). In spite of this, there are still some common traits between the accounts.

Entirely agree, and I suspect most if not all members are well aware of the fact eyewitness accounts can be contradictory at best, and entirely wrong on some details.

The problem with being left with "common traits" is, in the late 19th century, people of the same class in general dressed the same. The Late Victorian period was a very class conscious society.
Today how a person is dressed can be unique and help single them out of a crowd, back then this was not so easy.

A description of a man in a felt hat or peaked cap, and cutaway jacket with dark trousers wearing a moustache but clean shaven could describe several men in the same street at the same time. Common traits do not help in this case.

[chrismasonic]

about 15 minutes is a estimation given to police in statements...it's not real time...

Stride - why is it more reasonable to assume a lone killer swooped in slashed her throat but was interrupted before further mutilations instead of she was done in by the two men she was having grief with moments earlier?

more reasonable to believe those geezers did her in...

[Harry D]

maybe each of these murders started and stopped because the intended victim in each case was dead...task accomplished...

And four of them just happened to include post-mortem mutilations and disembowelment?

[Michael W Richards]

maybe each of these murders started and stopped because the intended victim in each case was dead...task accomplished...

there doesn't need to be escalation...

I really don't know why the multiple killer theory is getting scoffed at...as if the exclusive and elusive loner version has more credibility...

each if these murders has a well documented story leading up to it...and in some cases a very small window for your canonical ripper to swoop in and do his deeds...

the different descriptions of the suspects are various but this is often ignored...

A fine post. Realism often takes a back seat to sensationalism with this study, since the police couldn't link all 5 to one person why should we assume they are all linked?

A case could be made for three of the Canonicals to have been by the same killer based upon the data available, 1-2 and 4. The problem with that is that the 4th murder doesn't show the skill and knowledge used in the first 2 murders, but that doesn't mean that Kate was killed by someone else. It means there could be reasons for the drop...perhaps the fact that if Kate was actually seen by Lawende the killer has roughly 8 minutes to get her into the square and do all he does before Watkins makes his pass.

That's conjecture supported by the evidence, not sheer speculation.

As a footnote and to alleviate any further comments that myself, Lynn and others are suggesting something out of the box, its worth repeating that I directly asked the man who arguably has done the most thorough research on these cases and has garnered the greatest respect for his observations, Stewart Evans, how many alleged Ripper victims he would personally feel comfortable grouping under 1 killer....and he said 2, perhaps 3.

Based on that I feel fine with my own position on the matter.

This was done on these boards and anyone is welcome to look for that exchange in the archives.

cheers

[Michael W Richards]

And four of them just happened to include post-mortem mutilations and disembowelment?

Cutting up victims of murder doesn't mean that was the killers goal...it could well mean it was a way to conceal a motive while the hype of the Ripper ruled the press.

But In the case of Polly and Annie, I think its clear that the goal was just that.

Cheers

[chrismasonic]

yes...because that actually happened

this could have been ripper/rippers responsible for any amount of these murders...1,2,3,4,5+ who knows...maybe deliberate copycat mutilations

I am not discounting anything...I am exploring

[Harry D]

Cutting up victims of murder doesn't mean that was the killers goal...it could well mean it was a way to conceal a motive while the hype of the Ripper ruled the press.

But In the case of Polly and Annie, I think its clear that the goal was just that.

Cheers

That sounds wildly speculative and without evidence, Michael. I thought we were sticking to the facts here?

[chrismasonic]

A fine post. Realism often takes a back seat to sensationalism with this study, since the police couldn't link all 5 to one person why should we assume they are all linked?

A case could be made for three of the Canonicals to have been by the same killer based upon the data available, 1-2 and 4. The problem with that is that the 4th murder doesn't show the skill and knowledge used in the first 2 murders, but that doesn't mean that Kate was killed by someone else. It means there could be reasons for the drop...perhaps the fact that if Kate was actually seen by Lawende the killer has roughly 8 minutes to get her into the square and do all he does before Watkins makes his pass.

That's conjecture supported by the evidence, not sheer speculation.

As a footnote and to alleviate any further comments that myself, Lynn and others are suggesting something out of the box, its worth repeating that I directly asked the man who arguably has done the most thorough research on these cases and has garnered the greatest respect for his observations, Stewart Evans, how many alleged Ripper victims he would personally feel comfortable grouping under 1 killer....and he said 2, perhaps 3.

Based on that I feel fine with my own position on the matter.

This was done on these boards and anyone is welcome to look for that exchange in the archives.

cheers

respect Michael...I like it...agree but I think Marys killer used the style/method of previous attacks to hide under Jacks apron...reasons unknown

[lynn cates]

basic difference

Hello John. Thanks.

Alcohol cannot explain a basic difference like skill level.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

posing

Hello Greg. Ah, back to ALL unfortunates? I disagree.

And MANY who are dead do so on their backs. Compare Annie and Kate with respect to legs.

Oh where is Ally Ryder to discuss posing?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

trolls

Hello Chris.

"I do not believe this canonical nonsense...all you can do is attempt to identify the likely killers of each victim and the puzzle solves itself..."

Absolutely. But to do THAT requires thought. And the trolls who make a living at spouting nonsense would be left in the cold.

Cheers.
LC