Different Killers

[RockySullivan]

I think the workers at whitehall need to be looked at more closely. The story of the men with barrow allegedly ends with one of the workers being questioned and admitting he was there at the time of the sighting. The workers also came under some suspicion at the inquest allegedly because the foreman believed it was someone familiar with the layout and two workers also kept there tools near the spot where it was found. I think one of the workers is a strong possibility considering the buried limbs. One worker named a Richard Lawrence who left his tools in the spot where the torso was found lives in battersea.

[Abby Normal]

I think the Torso Killer was a horse of a different colour. This was clearly someone with access to private property in which to hack up (and possibly torture) his victims, as well as possessing the means to transport the pieces. I think the Torso Killer is a better fit for the upper-class gent seducing unsuspecting women into this lair than it is for the Ripper. I can't see why this same character would then start knifing women in the backstreets of Whitechapel, stealing an uterus here, a kidney there, putting himself at eminently more risk for less profit.

Hi Harry
Ive often said that perhaps if they are the same man then the torsos are when he could bring them somewhere private and the dismemberment was for ease in removing the bodies and The ripper murders were when he couldn't and had to kill and mutilate in the street. All of the torsos show similar abdominal, sexual organ mutilations to the ripper victims.

I also doubt that either was done for any kind of Burke and Hare, profit reason.

[RockySullivan]

All of the torsos showed signs of abdominal mutilations.

Another reason that torso was jack is the most logical conclusion. Now why would the newspaper with whitehall torso have animal blood? And if torso dismembered on a boat how did he get his victim to it?

[Abby Normal]

Batman...there are a couple strong points for the torso murders being the work of the ripper. first and strongest point being the removal of the uterus from Jackson & whitehall.

All of the torsos showed signs of abdominal mutilations.

[RockySullivan]

Is there any reason why he wouldn't?

Well he was certainly willing to get his hands dirty

[RockySullivan]

Hi Harry,

Considering the Thames connection- body parts were found in the Thames and the Scotland Yard building may have been accessed via the river-do you think that the Torso Murderer could have dismembered his victim on a boat which, of course, could also have aided with transport.

Liz Jackson was sleeping on the thames embankment before she turned up. The boat theory is not a far stretch

[John G]

I think the Torso Killer was a horse of a different colour. This was clearly someone with access to private property in which to hack up (and possibly torture) his victims, as well as possessing the means to transport the pieces. I think the Torso Killer is a better fit for the upper-class gent seducing unsuspecting women into this lair than it is for the Ripper. I can't see why this same character would then start knifing women in the backstreets of Whitechapel, stealing an uterus here, a kidney there, putting himself at eminently more risk for less profit.

Hi Harry,

Considering the Thames connection- body parts were found in the Thames and the Scotland Yard building may have been accessed via the river-do you think that the Torso Murderer could have dismembered his victim on a boat which, of course, could also have aided with transport.

[Harry D]

Harry, do u see an upper class gent knowing how to break into the vault at whitehall carrying a maggot ridden torso?

Is there any reason why he wouldn't?

[RockySullivan]

I think the Torso Killer was a horse of a different colour. This was clearly someone with access to private property in which to hack up (and possibly torture) his victims, as well as possessing the means to transport the pieces. I think the Torso Killer is a better fit for the upper-class gent seducing unsuspecting women into this lair than it is for the Ripper. I can't see why this same character would then start knifing women in the backstreets of Whitechapel, stealing an uterus here, a kidney there, putting himself at eminently more risk for less profit.

Harry, do u see an upper class gent knowing how to break into the vault at whitehall carrying a maggot ridden torso?

[Harry D]

I think the Torso Killer was a horse of a different colour. This was clearly someone with access to private property in which to hack up (and possibly torture) his victims, as well as possessing the means to transport the pieces. I think the Torso Killer is a better fit for the upper-class gent seducing unsuspecting women into this lair than it is for the Ripper. I can't see why this same character would then start knifing women in the backstreets of Whitechapel, stealing an uterus here, a kidney there, putting himself at eminently more risk for less profit.

[RockySullivan]

Yes, this is looking good. We have a historical record for it and that forensic connection.

The other connections I know of are that the whitehall vault had stolen tools some time before the murder just like 29 hanbury basement where richardson kept his tools. The next is that the whitehall torso was had newspaper clippings on top of the torso. One from the previous year another from Aug 24 1888. The day after the The inquest verdict for the "first" ripper victim Tabram and the day the inquest verdict was printed in the news. The next possible connection is the claim that lipski was written across from the railway arch where the pinchin torso was found. Potenitally same railway arches that pipeman chased Schwartz to after BSman shouted lipski. all coincidences?

[Batman]

Batman...there are a couple strong points for the torso murders being the work of the ripper. first and strongest point being the removal of the uterus from Jackson & whitehall.

Yes, this is looking good. We have a historical record for it and that forensic connection.

[RockySullivan]

The torso connection is under explored. I got some books on the matter to look at this. I think the best option would be to try and falsify it. To look at the arguments and weigh it up.

Batman...there are a couple strong points for the torso murders being the work of the ripper. first and strongest point being the removal of the uterus from Jackson & whitehall.

[Batman]

The torso connection is under explored. I got some books on the matter to look at this. I think the best option would be to try and falsify it. To look at the arguments and weigh it up.

[RockySullivan]

Rocky, you may like to know that there has been a follow-up to this. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7807&page=9

I have speculated that the reason why JtR is harvesting sexual parts of the body is to replace the parts of a corpse he has been putting together and maintaining through the torso murders.

This has exceptional explanatory power I believe. I have asked people if there is a reference to this before, if not, then its new. If not new, then I pass this idea to whomever came up with it before.

This explanation includes Jackson as a JtR victim. We have forensics to suggest a link, so its not just speculation without some evidence linking it.

Another thing is that the historical record for these offenders says this has happened many times before. Ed Gein. What I maybe unique is acquiring parts away from the same place the corpse is kept. Ed Gein brought his victims home intact. JtR did this but also harvested parts on the spot from his victims.

It also explains why he didn't seem to case what the first 3 canonical victims looked liked. Yet Eddowes and Kelly, who where better looking, had their faces slashed. I wonder if he was trying to take their face or parts of it or if he did this to say, if I can't have this part, no one will.

Anyhow it makes everything less of a mystery if one selects the above and opens up new lines of reasoning. It also tells us that his MO and signature is focused on harvesting sexual body parts.

Batty, the Frankenstein hypothesis is interesting...considering the Shelley connection...what would the killer use this creation for....er...pleasure?
One interesting thing is the whitehall torso was FULL of maggots! He held on to it for a long time...why?