Prostitution practice in Victorian London

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello everyone.

One thing that strikes me about the various talks, here and in JtR literature, is the "no signs of intimacy took place" debate.

Now, I'm not speculating anything about JtR.


I'm asking about prostitution practice: was intercourse the only service provided?

Considering STD and the law (that was abolished before 1888 I think) making it a crime to be a prostitute if you suffer from a STD, were the habits of customers changed to other practice (oral / anal sex, masturbation (handjob))

I'm just trying to see if in some of the case, some level of sexual activity, let's say, done in the same night of their murder, but not by JtR, could have gone undetected.

I'm also interested in JtR as a stalker (not for every murders): following a prostitute with a customer, watch them go at it, the man leaves, JtR attacks while the woman is still vulnerable / undress / unaware. I just want to play with this idea for a while, see if there is a possibility for maybe Tabram, Eddowes and Kelly.

Thanks.

[Ginger]

I'm just trying to see if in some of the case, some level of sexual activity, let's say, done in the same night of their murder, but not by JtR, could have gone undetected.

http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/history.shtml dates analysis of semen through microscopic detection of sperm as first being used in 1839, but it's not until 1945 that the current acid phosphatase chemical test was invented. Presumably pathologists in 1888 would have had to rely upon visual examination, with all its weaknesses.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/history.shtml dates analysis of semen through microscopic detection of sperm as first being used in 1839, but it's not until 1945 that the current acid phosphatase chemical test was invented. Presumably pathologists in 1888 would have had to rely upon visual examination, with all its weaknesses.

Thank you!

[Ginger]

Thank you!

You're quite welcome!

[Batman]

The main reason why there would be no evidence is because the prostitute has cleaned themselves between clients. So visual detection would be low to nil back then. However the point of all of this is that dead people don't tend to clean themselves after. Only the killer would be capable of doing that. While the uterius was removed in some cases, there was no sign of secretions (not blood related, but semen) in any of the murders.

While it not unusual for some lust killers to have sexual disfunction, such as impotence, as they tend to replace that psychologically with the knife for penetration, it would be highly unsual to have several different killers of prostitutes that all don't secrete semen.

I think this line of reasoning is devastating to the arguement for several different killers.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

The main reason why there would be no evidence is because the prostitute has cleaned themselves between clients. So visual detection would be low to nil back then. However the point of all of this is that dead people don't tend to clean themselves after. Only the killer would be capable of doing that. While the uterius was removed in some cases, there was no sign of secretions (not blood related, but semen) in any of the murders.

While it not unusual for some lust killers to have sexual disfunction, such as impotence, as they tend to replace that psychologically with the knife for penetration, it would be highly unsual to have several different killers of prostitutes that all don't secrete semen.

I think this line of reasoning is devastating to the arguement for several different killers.

but how thorough were the post mortems?

I know most of the time they checked the stomach of the victims for its content, but did they check if there was sodomy, when most of the wounds seemed abdominals?

[Penhalion]

Since at least one of the women (Polly Nichols) had indicated that she had had her 'doss money' several times over that day but spent it on booze, we can be pretty sure that she had had sexual relations of some type within the last several hours. It was also remarked by the doctor that her thighs were particularly clean- it stands to reason that she had been having a wash of the particular areas in between customers.

I believe one theory of how JtR operated was to wait until the woman had positioned herself for intercourse (usually standing slightly bent over with entry from behind) to begin the strangulation because the woman would be at her most vulnerable- off balance, arms holding skirts up. This could easily happen before any sort of entry and so would not leave any signs of semen on the woman.

[lynn cates]

inter-femoral

Hello Sir John.

"did they check if there was sodomy, when most of the wounds seemed abdominal?"

Yes, but mostly they checked for inter-femoral intercourse--the preferred method. That is why Polly's thighs were checked.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Penhalion.

"we can be pretty sure that she had had sexual relations of some type within the last several hours. It was also remarked by the doctor that her thighs were particularly clean- it stands to reason that she had been having a wash of the particular areas in between customers."

Precisely. Annie, although likely soliciting, seems to have had no luck.

As for the rest, I have no reason to believe they were soliciting when killed.

Cheers.
LC

[Gman992]

Plus there was the technique of the girls just putting it between their legs and simulating actual penetration..."leg jobs....."

[Damaso Marte]

I think this line of reasoning is devastating to the arguement for several different killers.

This is why the more clever of the several different killers proponents deny that the latter victims were prostitutes...at least on the night of their murders

[Gman992]

Do you suppose that JTR used his knife as a phallic, "getting off " using that? I know pretty disgusting....isn't it

[Scott Nelson]

You got it, Gman992. Of course, most posters would disagree because they don't have the correct mindset.

[Gman992]

That's messed up!!!

[SirJohnFalstaff]

That's messed up!!!

look up "picquerism"