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[hunterman1946]

Hello all,

I have been interested in this case for the last fifty years, and have just stood on the fence looking at all the views and theories which we are all entitled to, and have read so much, the first book which really started me off was by Donald Rumbelow, apart from the TV programme concerning Dan Farson way back in time in both cases.

It seems to me that in all of the five main murders, apart from Mary Kelly, there was a fence, or wooden gates nearby??

In a recent TV programme which was titled Cold Case Files narrated by Martin Kemp which I am sure has been screened before, the much acclaimed author, Donald Rumbelow who we all respect, made the comment of when John McCarthy asked Thomas Boyer (Indian Harry) to go and see if he could get some rent money out of Mary Kelly, said that Thomas on knocking on Mary Kelly's door, did not get an answer, went around to the back, and removed the "American" newspaper which was stuffed into the broken window pane, I have never read that before. Any views?

Looking at the "Death Certificate" of Mary Kelly, it says the place of death was 1 Millers Court ??.

In past employment I used to be a Post Mortem Technician, dealing with Hospital, Coroners and Forensic Post Mortem's, and it was a five year course. There were two procedures which I was taught in the removal of the internal organs. The easiest way to access the internal organs, was to remove the sternum, if this was calcified, it could be prove to be difficult, so we used the "Rib Shears", or if not too bad, we could use the very sharp "Blue Knife" or the "Catlin", very sharp and about 8" long. The only evidence of the removal of the sternum I could see of this, was the remains of the alleged body of Mary Kelly.

When I look at the case. it seems to me that they may have been two Jack The Rippers, one being the one who had some sort of anatomical knowledge, ie, Jack the Medic, and Jack The Killer.

Do we not have five different cases here? The first three canonical victims subject to whatever, medical reasons? The last two, Catherine Eddowes, and Mary Kelly, subject to bitter hatred, why?

Years back I read of an East End pub, no name, given on being demolished was found to have underground passages in which was found the skeletal remains of of a well dressed male, and beside him a bag containing rusty knives. I neither have read or heard anymore, did anybody else?

I do have a lot more I have come across, and can elaborate but would like to share it with you and with those in the know, along with the excellent authors on the case, we all know that the answer is there.

This was all done for a reason.

[K-453]

Hello Hunterman,

There were two procedures which I was taught in the removal of the internal organs.

Do you recognize one of those methods in what the Ripper did, or any method at all? How difficult, do you think, would organ removal in almost complete darkness, and done very hastily?

Years back I read of an East End pub, no name, given on being demolished was found to have underground passages in which was found the skeletal remains of of a well dressed male, and beside him a bag containing rusty knives. I neither have read or heard anymore, did anybody else?

That was probably a yellow press story with little truth in it. Here's an attachment with a similar story:

[hunterman1946]

Thank you for replying K453.

Yes I do see the method that was used. We were taught to go around the navel as it is a very tough, look at the sketch of Catherine Eddowes.

The incision into the right thigh of the alleged victim Mary Kelly also looks familiar to me, as we had to do such a one to extract the femur. This was easily done with a sharp blade such as a Swann Morton or Swann Major type of blade as used today.

Could all the mutilations be done in complete darkness, NO!! To identify the right from the left kidney, the ureter of the left kidney was left longer. First of all try to find both of them amongst the internal organs can be difficult even in a well lit modern post mortem suite, let alone in complete darkness, and in haste.

It seems strange to me that JTR just hitched up the skirts of his unfortunate victims, surely it would have been easier just to cut what they were wearing down the middle?? There is so much more to all this which has not been mentioned, but it is all there.

[K-453]

Hello Hunterman,

We were taught to go around the navel as it is a very tough, look at the sketch of Catherine Eddowes.

Could the knife jerk by itself if someone tried to cut down in a straight line?

In the Chapman case, the piece of skin with the navel in it was missing, they noticed that when sewing the body back together. So very probably the Ripper took that with him. I always thought there was some kind of fetishism behind it, and he tried to do the same with Eddowes, but had no time for it.

Could all the mutilations be done in complete darkness, NO!! To identify the right from the left kidney, the ureter of the left kidney was left longer. First of all try to find both of them amongst the internal organs can be difficult even in a well lit modern post mortem suite, let alone in complete darkness, and in haste.

If he was after the kidney, that is ... Maybe he took the first thing that got into his hands?

Maybe his fantasy was to take everything out, but in Mitre Square, he simply didn't have the time. So he ran off with the uterus and the kidney when he heard the constable coming.

[Amanda Sumner]

Thank you for replying K453.

Yes I do see the method that was used. We were taught to go around the navel as it is a very tough, look at the sketch of Catherine Eddowes.

The incision into the right thigh of the alleged victim Mary Kelly also looks familiar to me, as we had to do such a one to extract the femur. This was easily done with a sharp blade such as a Swann Morton or Swann Major type of blade as used today.

Could all the mutilations be done in complete darkness, NO!! To identify the right from the left kidney, the ureter of the left kidney was left longer. First of all try to find both of them amongst the internal organs can be difficult even in a well lit modern post mortem suite, let alone in complete darkness, and in haste.

It seems strange to me that JTR just hitched up the skirts of his unfortunate victims, surely it would have been easier just to cut what they were wearing down the middle?? There is so much more to all this which has not been mentioned, but it is all there.

Hello Hunterman1946

You say, in your first post, that you did training as a postmortem technician. I want to ask for your opinion on the technique used to remove Mary Kelly's heart, and wondered if you had come across that procedure before. It was stated in Bond's report that the heart was absent and that the organ had been removed leaving the pericardium behind. In other words, he had freed the heart from the blood vessels and removed it from a slit in the pericardial sac. From what I understood, the ribcage was still intact so I am puzzled that you say the sternum had been cut.
This procedure seems most unusual, and somewhat delicate, and almost impossible given the lack of light in that tiny room.
It does seem to me that Jack the Ripper had extensive surgical and anatomical knowledge. I wonder what your thoughts are on all this.

Regards,

Amanda S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunterman,

I've never heard of an American newspaper being stuffed into Kelly's window pane. I'm pretty sure it was a piece of clothing (it's on the tip of my fingers, but not coming out right now). Liz Stride had an edition of the Star (I believe Sept. 28th) stuffed into her bonnet though.

Polly Nichols and Liz Stride were killed next to identical wooden gates, probably built by the same men. Although I'm sure there were many such stable gates in the East End.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Howard Brown]

Tommy:
Hi there...
This is or was actually a case of Hunterman mishearing 'rags and newspaper', not 'American newspaper'.
JMenges located the documentary, "Jack The Ripper : An Ongoing Mystery"...from 2001 or 2000. At the 35 minute mark, Don goes into Bowyer removing the 'rags and newspaper' from the broken pane.
JRees and Nina and myself all agree with the latter being said.