Do the victims bodies show the way?

[Y'Golonac]

Before I start, please note that I am by no means expounding a theory which I personally believe in. I am just outlining a co-incidence and playing a little game of "what if ?".

Ever since I read the theories on this site, I have been intrigued by the idea that Charles Cross could be the Whitechapel Killer. I am unsure that this theory is 100% correct, but find the idea of an ordinary working man being the murderer fascinating.

I have written (and made available through this site) a horror role-playing campaign which allows players to investigate the murders and hopefully stop the killer. But, as well as the murders, this also has a large supernatural element to it, and although I am more than happy with it, I have recently started to wonder if I could rewrite it as a simple murder hunt. And in looking for a suitable suspect have decided on Charles Cross.

And so, as I have been considering how I might present that in a game, and considering the types of evidence that I might use, I looked at the victims locations and order on the 1894 OS map and made this discovery.

Mary Nicholls feet point to Annie Chapmans body
Annie Chapmans head points to Kate Eddows body
Kate Eddows feet point to the Broad Street depot where Cross worked
Mary Kelly's head points there also and her feet points back to Mary Nicholls.

Obviously this leaves Stride out of the picture, and does not work if she is included. However I do not personally believe that Stride was anything other than a typical Whitechapel domestic violence slaying and I personally blame an angry, drunken Michael Kidney!

So, to me it seems that it could be observed that Cross was mapping a (admittedly convoluted) path to work (Nicholls feet-Chapmans head-Eddows feet-Broad Street Depot). And then back again (Depot-Kellys head-Kellys feet-Nicholls).

Like I said, I am not advancing this as anything other than an observed coincidence. And maybe a great clue for a game!!

[K-453]

Hello Y'Golonac,
the position of the victims probably had more to do with the walls and fences next to them.

"The Ripper then lowered his victims to the ground, their heads to his left. This has been proven by the position of the bodies in relation to walls and fences that show that there was virtually no room for the murderer to attack the body from the left side."

From Casebook's "Introduction"

http://www.casebook.org/intro.html

[Wickerman]

Obviously this leaves Stride out of the picture, and does not work if she is included. However I do not personally believe that Stride was anything other than a typical Whitechapel domestic violence slaying and I personally blame an angry, drunken Michael Kidney!

Whoever Stride's killer was, if it is the man seen by Schwartz, then he knew he was seen. He was also seen by "Pipeman", so at least two witnesses could place him at the scene.
If Michael Kidney was the killer it is beyond reason that he will show up at a public inquiry to give evidence, and to risk being identified in front of the press, the police and public.

[c.d.]

And unless the police were complete idiots, Kidney would have been the prime suspect. So either he had an alibi that they checked or they were able to feel confident that he was not involved.

c.d.

[Y'Golonac]

Hello Y'Golonac,
the position of the victims probably had more to do with the walls and fences next to them.

"The Ripper then lowered his victims to the ground, their heads to his left. This has been proven by the position of the bodies in relation to walls and fences that show that there was virtually no room for the murderer to attack the body from the left side."

From Casebook's "Introduction"
http://www.casebook.org/intro.html

I totally agree that the position of the bodies was affected by nearby walls, fences etc. That wasn't my point.

All I was saying is that if you map both the orientation and angle of the bodies, on a reasonably large scale map, then as far as I can see there appears to be this correlation.

Why was there weeks between each murder? (or for the "Double event" set of murders). Did the killer have a lapse of desire to kill, which then returned? Maybe? Or could he just not often get the time to go hunting? Equally maybe?

Or, did he wait to kill, until the potential victim led him, or allowed herself to be led, to the next location that he had in mind?

And, once there did he only strike once the victim was standing in such a way as to facilitate the orientation he wanted, taking into account the aforementioned walls and fences etc? And was the thump on the fence caused by the killer having to haul Annie Chapman's body because it had initially fallen wrongly?

Like I said I am not saying this DID happen - just that the orientation of the bodies seems imho to suggest it.

[The Good Michael]

Y'Golonac,

I Lovecraft your name. Anyway, a case may be made that the victims were in the position for rear penetration, making them absolutely vulnerable to attack. Indeed, bent over slightly with hands against a gate, seems to me to be a better way for victims to endure sex with their customers.

Mike

[Y'Golonac]

Y'Golonac,

I Lovecraft your name. Anyway, a case may be made that the victims were in the position for rear penetration, making them absolutely vulnerable to attack. Indeed, bent over slightly with hands against a gate, seems to me to be a better way for victims to endure sex with their customers.

Mike

Thank you Mike. I chose my site name after the Mythos entity most likely be in involved with these killings (and Whitechapel as a whole)!

And I have written, and made freely available, a Call of Cthulhu campaign examining just that - Y'Golonac is the killer's sponsor!!

[Y'Golonac]

And unless the police were complete idiots, Kidney would have been the prime suspect. So either he had an alibi that they checked or they were able to feel confident that he was not involved.

c.d.

I would never suggest that, by the standards of the time, the police were idiots.

It just seems so obvious that many details of Strides murder are so different to the other canonicals:-

Scarf garrotte not strangulation
Much smaller bladed knife
The bullying assault in the street (if that was Stride and her murderer- which I think is probable - given the timing).
And the total absence of mutilation - just a garotte and a killing single, comparatively shallow knife cut! And yet there was 10-15 minutes from time of death to the pony carts entrance - roughly the same as with Mary Nicholls - and yet no mutilations - did the killer fall asleep on the job!

Or was Liz slain by another hand? a man she knew, so much so that even when he threw her down she screamed, but softly?? Maybe a scolding, irritated, embarrassed, just under her breath type of scream to a man she knew well enough to scold?????

[The Good Michael]

Thank you Mike. I chose my site name after the Mythos entity most likely be in involved with these killings (and Whitechapel as a whole)!

And I have written, and made freely available, a Call of Cthulhu campaign examining just that - Y'Golonac is the killer's sponsor!!

I would suggest Nyarlathotep as he is the one we most see in human guise and takes a perverse interest in the goings-on in the world. But the big Y is a psycho for sure.

Mike

[K-453]

Or, did he wait to kill, until the potential victim led him, or allowed herself to be led, to the next location that he had in mind? And, once there did he only strike once the victim was standing in such a way as to facilitate the orientation he wanted, taking into account the aforementioned walls and fences etc?

His spatial sense must have been fantastic ...

[Rosella]

I would never suggest that, by the standards of the time, the police were idiots.

It just seems so obvious that many details of Strides murder are so different to the other canonicals:-

Scarf garrotte not strangulation
Much smaller bladed knife
The bullying assault in the street (if that was Stride and her murderer- which I think is probable - given the timing).
And the total absence of mutilation - just a garotte and a killing single, comparatively shallow knife cut! And yet there was 10-15 minutes from time of death to the pony carts entrance - roughly the same as with Mary Nicholls - and yet no mutilations - did the killer fall asleep on the job!

Or was Liz slain by another hand? a man she knew, so much so that even when he threw her down she screamed, but softly?? Maybe a scolding, irritated, embarrassed, just under her breath type of scream to a man she knew well enough to scold?????

Maybe, but this killing was VERY near other people. There may have been sudden talking, or laughter, coming from the gaslit kitchen nearby, directly after the throat-cutting.

A club member could have clomped to to the side door to the club, which was ajar, and then retreated to the front door.

A tenant of one of the cottages in the yard could have walked outside. Many unexpected and, to Jack, risky noises could have occurred during that interval of time, leaving him to abandon the Stride endeavour and retreat up to the dark toilets for some minutes.

[Y'Golonac]

I would suggest Nyarlathotep as he is the one we most see in human guise and takes a perverse interest in the goings-on in the world. But the big Y is a psycho for sure.

Mike

I can see where you are coming from with Narly, but he always strikes me as more of a "lets give these stupid human fools more power than they can handle and then sit back and watch as it goes out of control" type of sadist.

While "Big Y", going by "Cold Print", seems more into petty perversions, guilt, "sin" and corruption. Imho that fits 1888 Whitechapel better?

[Y'Golonac]

His spatial sense must have been fantastic ...

Yeah, totally, and that is one reason why this is just pure speculation on my part, and not a theory that I believe is real, and can be justified.

I have a pretty good sense of direction, but would never imagine being as spatially aware as I am suggesting in this theory.

I was just amazed by, and then wanted to point out the coincidence of the alignment of the bodies, in chronological order, and where they seemed to lead.

And wanted to share that with the learned members of this forum.

[Y'Golonac]

Maybe, but this killing was VERY near other people. There may have been sudden talking, or laughter, coming from the gaslit kitchen nearby, directly after the throat-cutting.

A club member could have clomped to to the side door to the club, which was ajar, and then retreated to the front door.

A tenant of one of the cottages in the yard could have walked outside. Many unexpected and, to Jack, risky noises could have occurred during that interval of time, leaving him to abandon the Stride endeavour and retreat up to the dark toilets for some minutes.

That is true and one possible explanation. But I am still struck by the absence of his normal MO - not even one deep knife cut to Liz's neck - nothing but a relatively shallow one! If it was the Whitechapel Killer then it seems like a half-hearted attempt on his part?

I have never used a knife (and never want to!) but the coroners description of the neck cuts for Nicholls and Chapman talk about the knife being used violently and with force - which I presume was also with some speed? So these wouldn't have taken any time at all, and yet nothing on Stride?

I am no expert, but it just seems strange ....................!

[lynn cates]

Kidney

Hello Jon.

"Whoever Stride's killer was, if it is the man seen by Schwartz, then he knew he was seen. He was also seen by "Pipeman", so at least two witnesses could place him at the scene.
If Michael Kidney was the killer it is beyond reason that he will show up at a public inquiry to give evidence, and to risk being identified in front of the press, the police and public."

Quite. Hopefully, we can get past Michael Kidney since he is a non-starter.

Cheers.
LC