Jack the Ripper was Whitechapel meat cart driver, claims criminologist

[richardh]

From The Daily Mail: Dr Gareth Norris from Aberystwyth University believes 'carman' Charles Allen Lechmere, whose early route to work coincided with locations of Ripper killings, should be considered a suspect.

DM LINK

[Defective Detective]

These things really are faddish, aren't they?

I suppose the shawl was the single biggest event to happen this year, but all the smaller happenings seem to have turned 2014 into the year of Lechmere.

[GUT]

This was actually posted oven in the Lech Doco thread.

But wast this the same newspaper that was touting "SOLVED" by DNA a few short weeks back.

Our intrepid criminologist also, based on the drawing included doesn't know the difference between a carman at Pickford's and a cats meat man and I am yet to see any PROOF [I know I keep harping on about proof and evidence and stuff when others prefer speculation] that his duties involved delivering meat.

[GUT]

And there is that, to use his words "bizarre" claim again

David McNab added: 'Lechmere was discovered standing over the body but bizarrely no-one seemed to think that was important.'

Paul says Cross was standing in the MIDDLE of the road, not over the body.

As they used to say back in my computer days RIRO {Rubbish in Rubbish out].

But again let's not bother with evidence, facts and proof but say whatever we like so that it fits our idea.

[miss marple]

If Lechmere was a 'carman' that is a cab driver with horses, who worked for Pickfords a removal company, who had branches all over London, moving furniture and large items. I described the work of a Pickford driver in the thread ' A new critique of the Cross and Lechmere theory by Stewart Evans'

How come Lechmere has been demoted to a meat man pushing a wheel barrow as seen in the Daily Mail?

What is Dr Norris saying? That Lech was a not a cabman, did not not work for Pickfords , did not move large items? What is his evidence? Can someone enlighten me?


Miss Marple

[GUT]

If Lechmere was a 'carman' that is a cab driver with horses, who worked for Pickfords a removal company, who had branches all over London, moving furniture and large items. I described the work of a Pickford driver in the thread ' A new critique of the Cross and Lechmere theory by Stewart Evans'

How come Lechmere has been demoted to a meat man pushing a wheel barrow as seen in the Daily Mail?

What is Dr Norris saying? That Lech was a not a cabman, did not not work for Pickfords , did not move large items? What is his evidence? Can someone enlighten me?


Miss Marple

G'day Miss Marple [or may I call you Jane]

It has been claimed that the depot that Cross/Lechmere worked at mainly carted meat, now I for one have no idea how Dr Norris and or the Newspaper have managed to turn that into a cat's meat man, but it seems that that is the way things are done, when you have a suspect the facts that don't suit can just be disregarded and and others can be twisted to fit your ideas. Just look at the documentary on Him that aired recently with [as just one example] the constant references to him being found kneeling over the body.

[MrBarnett]

Hello Miss Marple,

Pickfords were universal carriers. You name it, they carried it. A man called Arthur Ingram, who has written a history of the company, was consulted and revealed that their Broad Street depot specialised in meat deliveries.

Lechmere's family ran a horse meat (cats meat) business, although there is no evidence that this was in existence in 1888 (as far as I know).

The article was obviously poorly researched.

MrB

[GUT]

Might I add that Mr Ingram in his book

The Story of Pickfords : Arthur Ingram

Points out that he has no expertise in pre-motorised Pickford's, just a minor issue really.

[Chris]

As they used to say back in my computer days RIRO {Rubbish in Rubbish out].

In Lechmere discussions it seems to be more a question of AIRO [Anything in Rubbish out].

[GUT]

In Lechmere discussions it seems to be more a question of AIRO [Anything in Rubbish out].

I'll pay that one.

[MrBarnett]

Might I add that Mr Ingram in his book

The Story of Pickfords : Arthur Ingram

Points out that he has no expertise in pre-motorised Pickford's, just a minor issue really.

I don't think he does, GUT, not in so many words. In an earlier post I pointed out that he devotes only 4 pages of text to the firm's history from 1647 to the arrival of motorised transport around 1900. The book is really a history of the motor fleet. But presumably he had access to research material that covered the pre motorised era.

Certainly by the early 20th century Pickfords were running a daily meat delivery service from Smithfield to the suburbs.

However, this business had been supplemented through mergers and acquisitions with the likes of Robert Hall and Hays Wharf, and it's not clear from the book whether this would have been the case in 1888.

MrB

[GUT]

I don't think he does, GUT, not in so many words. In an earlier post I pointed out that he devotes only 4 pages of text to the firm's history from 1647 to the arrival of motorised transport around 1900. The book is really a history of the motor fleet. But presumably he had access to research material that covered the pre motorised era.

Certainly by the early 20th century Pickfords were running a daily meat delivery service from Smithfield to the suburbs.

However, this business had been supplemented through mergers and acquisitions with the likes of Robert Hall and Hays Wharf, so its not clear from the book whether this would have been the case in 1888.

MrB

pickfords themselves have said that they have no idea what was carted from Broad Street in 1888

[MrBarnett]

pickfords themselves have said that they have no idea what was carted from Broad Street in 1888

Hi Gut,

I would be surprised if there is anyone at Pickfords today who has a greater knowledge of the firm's history than Ingrams. In all probability their records from 1888 no longer exist, but as a transport historian Ingrams would have access to other resources.

Perhaps he got his dates wrong, but he did clearly state that as a Broad Street driver his (Lechmere's) clothes would be covered in blood. So he obviously believes Broad Street was used as a meat depot in Lechmere's time .

However, he also waffles on about Lechmere coming into contact with 'oddments' such as liver, heart and tongue. That doesn't make sense to me. Meat wasn't butchered at Broad Street. As far as I can tell the meat delivery fleet was based there and their role was to pick up already butchered meat from Smithfield and deliver it around London. He would not have had to go into the market to collect the meat. The Smithfield porters had a cast iron monopoly on that activity .

And as several people with personal experience have confirmed, simply loading /unloading sides of meat would not have resulted in his being covered in blood.

MrB

[SirJohnFalstaff]

From The Daily Mail: Dr Gareth Norris from Aberystwyth University believes 'carman' Charles Allen Lechmere, whose early route to work coincided with locations of Ripper killings, should be considered a suspect.

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I think anyone considering a ripper suspect because of their job or schedule is not looking at this objectively.

[Cogidubnus]

As Sir John suggests let's look at this objectively.

Pickfords are at Broad Street Station initially because they are the appointed London Agents of the London and North Western Railway...this enables the Railway Company to minimise their own goods distribution network compared to others...

As at 1893 there are more than 300 horses stabled by Pickfords at Broad Street...each working at least a fourteen hour day...that represents one hell of a distribution network...

I would respectfully suggest that this is more likely to be the profile of a general carrier for a railway company than a specialised meat carrier for distribution from Smithfields Market to butchers shops...

All the best

Dave