PC Long, GSG & a Piece of Apron

[DRoy]

Hi everyone,

Since we kind of hijacked the 'Time-Gap' thread, I figured this would be a good place to discuss anything and everything related to the time between the double event murders of Stride and Eddowes. The only restriction is please do not discuss whether you believe Stride to be a JTR victim or not. If you don't believe that she is, please don't waste the time in sharing that belief in this thread.

I'll start off by reiterating my current belief (55/45) that PC Long's testimony wasn't fully believed/accepted by the police or the Coroner and that he most probably missed the piece of apron and the GSG after he supposedly had passed that spot at 2:20. If that were the case, there really wouldn't be that much of a time gap between the two murders and therefore we can drop most of the wacky theories there are regarding what he did during that time.

My interpretation of Long's testimony and the questions presented to him show quite clearly the Coroner (Langham) nor the police (represented by Crawford) 'trusted' his testimony. If I'm correct, that should raise doubts as to what he testified to...most specifically his answer to whether the piece of apron (or even the GSG) was there as he passed that spot at 2:20 am.

Is there anything within or besides the various newspaper inquest versions of value? Are there any newspaper reports or interviews that can shed some light on any of this? What surviving records are there that could help clear this up? Can we get through page one without mentioning Lechmere/Cross? (oops apparently not).

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Roy. Interesting premise.

"he most probably missed the piece of apron and the GSG after he supposedly had passed that spot at 2:20. If that were the case, there really wouldn't be that much of a time gap between the two murders. . ."

Possibly. Of course, if he missed it but were deposited at 2.15, that's still half an hour.

When do YOU think it was placed there?

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Hello Roy. Interesting premise.

"he most probably missed the piece of apron and the GSG after he supposedly had passed that spot at 2:20. If that were the case, there really wouldn't be that much of a time gap between the two murders. . ."

Possibly. Of course, if he missed it but were deposited at 2.15, that's still half an hour.

When do YOU think it was placed there?

Cheers.
LC

Lynn,

If I were to guess I'd say before 2:00. I have no evidence to back that guess up but I have a difficult time believing he carried it around any longer than he absolutely had to for whatever reason he took it for in the first place.

Cheers
DRoy

[Scott Nelson]

What surviving records are there that could help clear this up?

It cannot ever be cleared up. We have to rely on existing records, of which many are ambigious.

[lynn cates]

distance

Hello Roy. Thanks.

OK, that would correspond better to the distance involved.

All we lack now is a good reason why he held onto it for so long a distance.

Suggestions?

Cheers.
LC

[Hatchett]

Hi,

Perhaps the killer used it to wrap around his knife before putting it in his pocket. Feeling that he was a safe distance from Mitre Square and there was no one about, he took them out and unwrapped the knife and threw the piece of apron away.

[lynn cates]

safe

Hello Hatchett. Thanks.

I have heard about safe distance before. But what could be less safe than walking about with a bloody cloth just after a murder?

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

OK, that would correspond better to the distance involved.

All we lack now is a good reason why he held onto it for so long a distance.

Suggestions?

Lynn,

There have been many suggestions as to what the piece of apron was used for and some reasons seem more likely than others (the killer cut himself, used to carry the organs, etc). Based on the suggestions, if I were to choose a favorite, I'd probably go with he cut himself. Can't remember if it was Fish and/or Jon that had suggested that.

I like the way you simplified it by commenting on distance rather than time because that seems, at least to me, to be more likely than both time and distance.

Your opinion?

Cheers
DRoy

[Phil Carter]

It cannot ever be cleared up. We have to rely on existing records, of which many are ambigious.

Hello Scott,

Indeed... and if one were for example, a person thinking the Batty Street lodger was JTR, and thinking that that lodger was, as we are informed, an American, then one would of course plump for the "before 2.am" dumping of said apron piece, in order to fit said Batty Street theory.

Like you say... it is horses for courses... will never be cleared up WITHOUT bona fida Police documentation coming to light... like so much else in this case.

Then again... we might get some scribble in a notebook kept back from the world by some relative of P.C.Long for 126 years..... in two different coloured pieces of chalk, of course ;-)


kind regards


Phil

[DRoy]

Lynn,

Okay I have a theory for you now. I'm assuming someone has suggested it before...

I have mentioned that I like the theory of the killer perhaps cutting himself. However, I wonder if we should perhaps consider it was Stride's murder where he could have cut himself instead of the murder of Eddowes?

Stride had blood on her hand which didn't seem to match the scene and also no mutilation which apparently we should expect to see. If the killer cut himself that could explain the blood on Stride's hand and perhaps a quick and panicked exit (adding of course to the sound of a horse and cart approaching).

We can have fun either adding to this or poking holes in it. Have at it!

Cheers
DRoy

[Hatchett]

Hi,

Not a bad theory, but would the killer with an injured hand go on and kill someone else?

Of course the killer of Stride neednt have been the killer of Eddowes.

Best wishes,

[Scott Nelson]

This was written some time ago, but it bears upon the question of timings:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-graffito.html

[Fisherman]

Lynn,

Okay I have a theory for you now. I'm assuming someone has suggested it before...

I have mentioned that I like the theory of the killer perhaps cutting himself. However, I wonder if we should perhaps consider it was Stride's murder where he could have cut himself instead of the murder of Eddowes?

Stride had blood on her hand which didn't seem to match the scene and also no mutilation which apparently we should expect to see. If the killer cut himself that could explain the blood on Stride's hand and perhaps a quick and panicked exit (adding of course to the sound of a horse and cart approaching).

We can have fun either adding to this or poking holes in it. Have at it!

Cheers
DRoy

Iīve never seen this suggested before, and it is fresh thinking, Iīll say that much.

The rag, however - did he procure that in Mitre Square? And had he bled all the way up there? Or are you suggesting something else altogether?

Overall, I think the drawback of proposing that the killer cut himself in Dutfieldīs Yard is the minimum of cutting done there. Cutting a neck would normally not involve a pattern of movement that would have you cutting yourself unless you were rather clumsy.

Itīs good to have your views stirred around a little, anyhow!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

faecal matter

Hello Roy. Thanks.

I wonder about the source of the faecal matter?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

second helping

Hello (again) Roy. Thanks.

Clever idea. But would such an event be consonant with a second murder?

Cheers.
LC