Local Knowledge

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think the murderer was local and whilst all the points in this thread are valid, what makes me think the murderer was local is his apparent knowldge of police beats (directions as well as timings). I guess it is Catherine Eddowes murder where that is most pronounced, but Nichols too. It is less the case with Chapman, Stride and Kelly.

Hi Eten, I’d favour that it was the victims that were more aware of police beats though. I wouldn’t suggest that they were aware of all timings but it would make sense for them to watch a Constable pass by knowing that they were ‘safe’ for 20 or 30 minutes until he was due to pass again.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think local knowledge plays a part in as much as the prostitutes would have had it. I think this explains the knowledge of police beats; if sexual encounters took <5 minutes then that was also enough time for the Ripper to do what he wanted, and the floosy would have been able to say where would have had that amount of time free (for example, Mitre Square). This wouldn't have worked so well in the case of, say Bucks Row, but that might not have been the location chosen by Polly, but on the way, and Ripper found it convenient at that moment.

Local knowledge would have have been good for pubs and who frequents them. The Ripper also seemed to be able to scout women who were very down on their luck, even for prostitutes (drunks, little to no family, no or on/off boyfriend etc). This kind of gossip would have been useful, no doubt.

But I think the main benefit of local knowledge, at least in this place at this time, would have been gangs. Gangs were all over the East End and it's likely many knew Ripper, but none would have squealed since he could have squealed equally loudly. The police were not well liked in the East End so the locals almost preferring to keep quiet than tell them and reveal their own secrets (cf Emma Smith, she likely didn't tell police due to her own crimes and her knowledge may have implicated her). There was no witness protection such as we have now, only pardons really, and those were hit and miss. I believe it may have been local knowledge that actually ended up shielding the Ripper.

Hi Tani,

I’d certainly agree that the victims knowledge would have helped. Seeing a Constable pass would have let them know that they were ok for a few minutes until he was due to return. Knowing the best places to find victims would certainly have helped to in prevented aimless walking around. Your suggestion that the hands might have known the ripper isn’t one that I’ve heard before.

[GBinOz]

We know that the Ripper headed back east after the murder of Eddowes. And that he took with him a bloody and fecal-infused piece of her shawl. The main reason for this seems to be, "he wiped his knife with the apron and dropped it in the alley in Goulston Street." WHY? The Ripper could have cleaned his knife and hands simply by wiping them on the body of Eddowes, the work of a few seconds. If we presume he already had a container in which to keep his trophies, then why hang on to a filthy - and incriminating - piece of evidence at all? If caught, that cloth puts the noose around his neck. It's about a 7-minute leisurely walk to Goulston Street from Mitre Square, 5 if you're hurrying (I did it in 10, but I am fat and slow). But the hue and cry had already been raised after the Stride murder, and the risks were palpable. So why did he hang onto the shawl? I theorize that the Ripper injured himself while mutilating Eddowes. It was quite dark in the square, and if he was hurrying and his knife slipped (we're all human), he may well have cut himself badly enough to fashion a temporary bandage to staunch the bleeding. So he dashed off to a place where he knew sanctuary awaited him. If he was able to slow/stop the bleeding, the Ripper probably ditched the apron in the nearest alley.

Hi HIB,

It was actually a piece of her apron. I also put forward this theory some time ago, and supported it with the following:

The Star, 12 October, 1888

"A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888

"... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888

"A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

There is the possibility that he died from an infection and that the murders after that were by other hands.

Cheers, George

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

hi hib,

it was actually a piece of her apron. I also put forward this theory some time ago, and supported it with the following:

The star, 12 october, 1888

"a suspicious infirmary patient.
A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an east-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

sheffield evening telegraph 12 october, 1888

"... The police now have under close observation in connection with the whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the east end infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

hampshire advertiser, 13 october, 1888

"a report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an east end infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

there is the possibility that he died from an infection and that the murders after that were by other hands.

Cheers, george

excellent!!!

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Good points.

You could post the part about Mitre Square on a Mitre Square-related thread HIB. The subject always gets discussion going. Your suggestion that the killer might have injured himself has been proposed and I think it’s a perfectly reasonable possibility. I may be wrong but I seem to recall Paul Begg mentioning it on here at some point. Trevor Marriott has other ideas though.

Thanks so much! Glad to see that my theory has legs. Paul Begg, eh? Seems like I'm in good company.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HIB,

It was actually a piece of her apron. I also put forward this theory some time ago, and supported it with the following:

The Star, 12 October, 1888

"A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888

"... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888

"A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

There is the possibility that he died from an infection and that the murders after that were by other hands.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I’d forgotten that you’d proposed this theory too. I could only remember Paul Begg mentioning it (and I’m not exactly certain that I’m right on that) I think it’s a very plausible suggestion. Maybe he stopped in the Goulston Street doorway to check the wound or because he hadn’t had time to tie it properly and it was coming loose and he then decided to re-dress it using something that he had on him, like a neck scarf or a handkerchief which led him to discard the apron piece?

[Losmandris]

Some really interesting points above. Thanks for contributing everyone!

I sometimes wonder if JTR stalked some of his victims before hand. In doing so he built up a clear picture of not only their habits but also those of the police. I suspect all the victims were killed at their usual places of business as it were. Other serial killers have demonstrated this kind of behaviour, so at least a possibility I believe.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some really interesting points above. Thanks for contributing everyone!

I sometimes wonder if JTR stalked some of his victims before hand. In doing so he built up a clear picture of not only their habits but also those of the police. I suspect all the victims were killed at their usual places of business as it were. Other serial killers have demonstrated this kind of behaviour, so at least a possibility I believe.

Hi Tristan,

Maybe he checked out the area beforehand to familiarise himself?

[The Rookie Detective]

Some excellent point being made all round here, and some excellent hypotheses too.

I agree with the idea that the killer of Eddowes may have injured himself.

But I would extend this idea and state that I think it's almost certain (IMO) that the killer inadvertently cut himself when he butchered MJK to pieces.

It would be statistically likely that the killer at least sustained some form of self-inflicted wound as he was working on MJK.

The reasoning behind this may be the answer as to why there was a time gap between MJK and the subsequent murder of Alice McKenzie 8 months later.

I would apply the same logic and look for anyone admitted to a hospital/infirmary shortly after the murder of.MJK, with an unexplained knife wound.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some excellent point being made all round here, and some excellent hypotheses too.

I agree with the idea that the killer of Eddowes may have injured himself.

But I would extend this idea and state that I think it's almost certain (IMO) that the killer inadvertently cut himself when he butchered MJK to pieces.

It would be statistically likely that the killer at least sustained some form of self-inflicted wound as he was working on MJK.

The reasoning behind this may be the answer as to why there was a time gap between MJK and the subsequent murder of Alice McKenzie 8 months later.

I would apply the same logic and look for anyone admitted to a hospital/infirmary shortly after the murder of.MJK, with an unexplained knife wound.

It’s possible RD. George’s suggestion that the killer might have died from an infection is a good one imo. Especially if the killer was reluctant to go to a hospital.

[Tani]

Hi Tani,

I’d certainly agree that the victims knowledge would have helped. Seeing a Constable pass would have let them know that they were ok for a few minutes until he was due to return. Knowing the best places to find victims would certainly have helped to in prevented aimless walking around. Your suggestion that the hands might have known the ripper isn't one that I've heard before.

It struck me when Emma Smith passed a Police Station on her way home and to the Hospital and said nothing to anyone. One wonders why she would do that given she'd nearly been murdered right there and then. We know the prostitutes weren't exactly friendly with police, but her injury and blood loss must have been so obvious to anyone passing (funny walk, moans of pain, trail of blood, beaten up). Not telling anyone seems fairly extreme and it's even been suggested that isn't wasn't even a gang but a single individual and that she lied about the attack in that way. One wonders why. I think it's reasonable to assume there was much more context to the attack than just a random gang slamming a prostitute, and that's what she didn't want to reveal. One then wonders how many people at that time and place have such secrets, knew murderers, gang members, extorted money etc. It likely wasn't worth rotting in a 19th c. jail or hanging for to expose someone who hurt you or others if you were also invovled somehow.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

It’s possible RD. George’s suggestion that the killer might have died from an infection is a good one imo. Especially if the killer was reluctant to go to a hospital.

Ooooo! I hadn't thought of that before! I can kick myself because I put out the theory that the Ripper injured himself. But wouldn't some simple germicidal/antiseptic remedies be readily available at that time, like iodine...? Even so, if he used a cloth soaked in blood and feces to bind his wound, he might well have topped himself in the long run, as an injury like that can turn into toxic/septic shock rapidly.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

Hi George,

I’d forgotten that you’d proposed this theory too. I could only remember Paul Begg mentioning it (and I’m not exactly certain that I’m right on that) I think it’s a very plausible suggestion. Maybe he stopped in the Goulston Street doorway to check the wound or because he hadn’t had time to tie it properly and it was coming loose and he then decided to re-dress it using something that he had on him, like a neck scarf or a handkerchief which led him to discard the apron piece?

That's extremely likely, especially since the Ripper (if the theory is true) did himself no favors by allowing his blood to mix with foreign blood and feces. Eeew.