Criminologist Prof David Wilson

[Pontius2000]

It's not even about carelessness in the end. Schizophrenia does not occur in bursts. It's days, and as the disease progresses, months and even years without lucidity. They couldn't remotely blend in. And if the disease was what caused him to kill, then there would be multiple attacks in a short time frame. It's a structural disorder. No action or inaction can end an episode. It ends when it ends.

Schizophrenia does come and go in manic episodes, depending of course on how advanced the disease is. We have no idea how advanced the disease would've been in Kosminski or the killer at the time of the killing so there's no real proof that he would've committed multiple obviously incriminating crimes back to back until he were caught.

If he killed over the course of a few months in 1888, was watched over by family and trailed by police for the better parts of 1889 and 1890, and is then permanently institutionalized in 1891, then that IS a relatively short time if the disease was not that advanced in 1888.

A couple doctors and hospital workers overworked and underfunded/understaffed had a few scant words indicating that Kosminski seemed harmless. And a lot of people take that as gospel that he wasn't JtR. To me, that's assuming a lot. JtR, once institutionalized, probably WOULD have been relatively compliant. Especially as his "brain gave way altogether".

[Wickerman]

... And a lot of people take that as gospel that he wasn't JtR. To me, that's assuming a lot. JtR, once institutionalized, probably WOULD have been relatively compliant. Especially as his "brain gave way altogether".

For me, the biggest stumbling block against Kozminski's candidacy as JtR, is that there is no indication of his condition in the fall of 1888, and also no indication the police suspected him at that time.
His candidacy offered in memoirs many years later comes across to me as an afterthought.

[Barnaby]

The symptoms can wax and wane but it is a nonetheless inevitable downward trajectory resulting in not being able to function independently in society.

I never quite understand what people mean when they say JTR got "lucky." On one hand, I think we all can agree that a certain degree of luck was involved even if he was a highly intelligent organized killer. On the other hand, someone oblivious to police beats, his surroundings, etc. would have been caught. I do believe that a good bit of luck was involved and JTR wasn't some criminal mastermind. But even so, these crimes required a certain amount of stealth, deception, skill at quickly incapacitating victims silently, and knowledge of surroundings. He needed all this and some luck.

I'm not sure if Kosminski was with it enough for possess these skills. It certainly isn't impossible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Michael W Richards]

We appear to be making the assumption hat JtR killed prostitutes because he had a particular animosity towards them ('down on whores' and all that). We don't know if that is true or not. They might just be easy targets. Most women in that age would not easily go to a dark secluded area with a man. These women would not only go, they had already scoped out the best (darkest, least likely to be disturbed) places and could lead the man to them. Combine that with poor health/weakness and inebriation and you have the perfect victim. Maybe all JtR needed was vulnerability.

As you've pointed out, the specifics on the first 2 alleged Ripper victims suggests that both women were definitively soliciting strangers to raise money for their nights lodgings, and that both were physically impaired in some fashion. Those 2 elements, combined with the similarity in kill technique and abdominal mutilation focus, strongly suggest that these were things this killer does when looking for a woman alone and an opportunity to strike.

Find the victim while she is alone soliciting, get her alone by acting as a client, and then kill her almost instantly with the double cut throat.

That's Victimology....street prostitutes forced by circumstances to take strange men into alleys, the MO and the Signature.

Its a shame we still discuss murders that we cannot say match either of those factors, and ones that clearly do not match.

Cheers

[Pontius2000]

For me, the biggest stumbling block against Kozminski's candidacy as JtR, is that there is no indication of his condition in the fall of 1888, and also no indication the police suspected him at that time.
His candidacy offered in memoirs many years later comes across to me as an afterthought.

There is certainly indication that the police staked out and followed SOMEONE not long after the Kelly murder and into 1889. And knowing that he was being followed, this person's mental condition worsened until his family finally had him committed.

Of all the known suspects, that fits Kosminski most. If he was eating trash from the street prior to being committed in 1891, then it's a strong likelihood that he was not a completely normal functioning person in late 1888.

There is also the Swanson marginalia which specifically states that Kosminski was identified by a witness at a rest home sometime prior to his going to colney hatch

[Pontius2000]

I never quite understand what people mean when they say JTR got "lucky.

I'll explain what I mean by JtR being "lucky".

The known serial killer that most fits my idea of JtR is Richard Chase, "the vampire of Sacramento". You've read of him I'm sure but to sum it up...he was a schizophrenic who believed Nazis and UFOs were turning his blood into powder and killing was the only way to stay alive. He haphazardly committed a series of crimes in which he could've been caught. On numerous occasions, he got away due to nothing more than dumb luck. He finally was caught on dumb luck...a little girl interrupted his final murder and identified him, and he'd left a palm print at the scene.

That's what I mean JtR being "lucky". All he had to do was walk up to a victim and they'd lead him to a private killing spot. It was really nothing to do with his own cunning. We can be sure that JtR left fingerprints and dna all over the crime scenes, but they were no use to police of that time. To me, the double event-killing 2 people so close together- was a very reckless act itself. Numerous things led to JtR's "luck". Chances are, if the murders had occurred in 1988 instead of 1888, he likely would've been caught within a month.

[robhouse]

I agree with the "Kosminski or someone like him" sentiment to an extent. But i maintain that there is not one shred of evidence to say that he was NOT JtR.

From what little we know of him, it's pretty clear that he was either schizophrenic or bi-polar, or both. So it's assuming a lot to say that he was "harmless".

I've been a cop for 13 years and worked several years before that in a mental hospital while majoring in psychology. So I've met and dealt with a lot of schizophrenics and bi-polars. And while they are certainly not all serial killers or even overly violent, everyone I've ever dealt with- EVERYONE, without any exception- has displayed SOME level of aggression. They don't walk around salivating or talking to the stereotypical 'voices' in their heads but when their manic episodes set in, you know it. It's like a completely different entity has taken them over. Some will just stare at you and clench their fists, some will pace and posture, some will mumble or sneer at you, and some will try to fight you. But not one schizophrenic or bi-polar that I've ever met and seen in their manic states have ever made me think, "this is a completely harmless person". Then just as quickly as the mania sets in, they can snap out of it and appear to be a completely normal person.I've long felt that the demon possession/exorcist stuff from the old days was those people's way of trying to make sense of schizophrenia and bi-polar.

If you throw in a psychopathic personality, which is cultivated more from environment and experience, then you've got problems.

We have no problem believing Kosminski was schizophrenic. And if you've read much of the pogroms and how poor 19th century Jews were treated, you'd agree that it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that Kosminski may have developed a psychopathic personalilty. And no matter what you want to believe or what you may interpret from 100+ year old medical records, a schizophrenic with a psychopathic personality IS a downright dangerous person.

After he Kosminski was institutionalized, the "trigger" would no longer be there....he would not have had close, private access to women. And definitely no access to the easiest targets...desperate prostitutes. So there's no reason to think that he would've continued with the exact same behaviors as he'd displayed on the outside. On the outside, we're told he ate trash from the street. Did he continue to eat trash after being institutionalized? Did Jeffrey Dahmer continue to kill and cannibalize young men after being imprisoned?

Very good post. Thank you for your perspective.

Rob House

[Wickerman]

There is certainly indication that the police staked out and followed SOMEONE not long after the Kelly murder and into 1889. And knowing that he was being followed, this person's mental condition worsened until his family finally had him committed.

Would I be correct in assuming you have merged two theories here?
The first line appears to refer to the story given by Henry Cox, but I don't recall him saying their suspect was incarcerated by his family.
Plus Cox never identified his suspect, and as we learn from police reports the 'insane' were of special interest to police. So presumably many were followed.

Of all the known suspects, that fits Kosminski most.

Hmm, but it only fits because it has been made to fit.
The second line & the first line are from separate sources.

If he was eating trash from the street prior to being committed in 1891, then it's a strong likelihood that he was not a completely normal functioning person in late 1888.

Its a possibility.

There is also the Swanson marginalia which specifically states that Kosminski was identified by a witness at a rest home sometime prior to his going to colney hatch

That subject has been chewed over for years.
Yes, Kosminski was incarcerated, but what connected him to the crimes, and who was this witness, and to which crime?

I agree with the "Kosminski or someone like him" sentiment to an extent. But i maintain that there is not one shred of evidence to say that he was NOT JtR.

True of a number of suspects, but only due to our lack of knowledge about him.
We know considerably more about Druitt, yet the same rule applies to him too.

[Pontius2000]

Very good post. Thank you for your perspective.

Rob House

No problem. I very much enjoyed your book as I always felt Kosminski, "or someone very much like him", was JtR. I wish there was more info available on Kosminski. Just like Richard Chase felt killing was the only way to keep his blood from turning to powder, I could easily see JtR thinking he suffered from a disease or poison that could only be cured from eating trash from the gutter. Or for that matter, from eating a uterus.

[Cogidubnus]

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread indeed...thanks everyone...

All the best

Dave

[Pontius2000]

Would I be correct in assuming you have merged two theories here?
The first line appears to refer to the story given by Henry Cox, but I don't recall him saying their suspect was incarcerated by his family.
Plus Cox never identified his suspect, and as we learn from police reports the 'insane' were of special interest to police. So presumably many were followed.



Hmm, but it only fits because it has been made to fit.
The second line & the first line are from separate sources.



Its a possibility.



That subject has been chewed over for years.
Yes, Kosminski was incarcerated, but what connected him to the crimes, and who was this witness, and to which crime?



True of a number of suspects, but only due to our lack of knowledge about him.
We know considerably more about Druitt, yet the same rule applies to him too.

I don't think I'm combining any theories. We have statements from people who were actually there that:
-the police trailed someone who knew they were being followed
-a polish Jew was identified by another Jew at a rest home
-Kosminski's family had him committed
-Kosminski displayed behavior that is similar to known schizophrenic serial killers
-Kosminski considered one of three major suspects by at least one high profile police official

The police certainly made mistakes and missed opportunities, but I've always found it arrogant that so many believe that we-125 years removed- can know more than the people who were on the ground witnessing it in real time. It must also be remembered that the info we have available now is only the tip of the iceberg to what was once available prior to WWII and souvenir thieves.

I don't agree that the same arguments for Kosminski could be made for Druitt. For one thing, Kosminski lived right in the heart of the murder district. Druitt did not. Aside from committing suicide at an opportune time for the crimes to end, there is really nothing known about Druitt that points to him having the ability to be a serial killer. Is there anything to support that he suffered from anything other than depression? And if I remember correctly, its somewhat confirmed that he would have had an alibi for at least one or two of the murders.

[GUT]

G'day Pontious

Sorry to butt in but

I don't agree that the same arguments for Kosminski could be made for Druitt. For one thing, Kosminski lived right in the heart of the murder district. Druitt did not. Aside from committing suicide at an opportune time for the crimes to end, there is really nothing known about Druitt that points to him having the ability to be a serial killer. Is there anything to support that he suffered from anything other than depression? And if I remember correctly, its somewhat confirmed that he would have had an alibi for at least one or two of the murders.

What alibi?

I think that f you refer to his cricket it has been very much proven that he had plenty of time a couple of hours to get from Whitechapel to Blackheath and over 30 hours to get to Dorset.

[Pontius2000]

Sorry to butt in but




What alibi?

I think that f you refer to his cricket it has been very much proven that he had plenty of time a couple of hours to get from Whitechapel to Blackheath and over 30 hours to get to Dorset.

That is what I'm referring to.

And I'm from the US, so I really know very little about the whole area. But maybe you or someone can compare where Kosminski lived in relation to the murder sites compared to Druitt. From what I've read and have been led to believe, Druitt lived a decent distance away. Iust from what we know of sexual serial killers, it is typical that they kill in the immediate area that is familiar to them.

And aside from suffering from depression to the point of killing himself, what is the evidence that Druitt possessed the ability to kill? For that matter, where in the history of crime has an undetected serial killer ever committed suicide?

[Wickerman]

I don't think I'm combining any theories. We have statements from people who were actually there that:
-the police trailed someone who knew they were being followed

Which appears to be the Cox story.

-a polish Jew was identified by another Jew at a rest home

c/w Anderson's memoirs.

-Kosminski's family had him committed

c/w Asylum records.

-Kosminski displayed behavior that is similar to known schizophrenic serial killers

And others have said it is just as likely the symptoms of Bipolar.

-Kosminski considered one of three major suspects by at least one high profile police official

Along with Druitt & Ostrog, of which Ostrog was an impossibility.
Which raises questions about the reliability of the evidence for the list.

I don't agree that the same arguments for Kosminski could be made for Druitt.

I only indicated that there was no evidence to rule Druitt out as JtR either.

For one thing, Kosminski lived right in the heart of the murder district.

At the time of the murders we have no idea where he lived. But also remember, at the time of the murders Kosminski was only 23. The typical suspect age ranged from 28 to 40ish.

Druitt did not.

The killer did not need to live among his victims.

Aside from committing suicide at an opportune time for the crimes to end, there is really nothing known about Druitt that points to him having the ability to be a serial killer.

Are we altogether sure what those requirements need to be?

Is there anything to support that he suffered from anything other than depression?

Depression as a cause for his suicide, not as a murderer, for that we have no motive. Is a motive necessary?

And if I remember correctly, its somewhat confirmed that he would have had an alibi for at least one or two of the murders.

The cricket schedule you mean?, No, nothing has been found to rule him out. Many have tried to find something.

Just to be clear, I don't think Druitt was either, but I am just making a comparison.

[GUT]

G'Day Pontius

That is what I'm referring to.

And I'm from the US, so I really know very little about the whole area. But maybe you or someone can compare where Kosminski lived in relation to the murder sites compared to Druitt. From what I've read and have been led to believe, Druitt lived a decent distance away. Iust from what we know of sexual serial killers, it is typical that they kill in the immediate area that is familiar to them.

I'm from Australia so only know the area from maps.

However Montie had chambers nearby so would possibly not be unfamiliar with the area. He also appears to have had connection to Toynbee Hall.

But I grant you if you are looking for a local Kosminski is more a local than Druitt.

And aside from suffering from depression to the point of killing himself, what is the evidence that Druitt possessed the ability to kill? For that matter, where in the history of crime has an undetected serial killer ever committed suicide?

Name me one "undetected serial killer who didn't commit suicide. See if they are undetected we simply do not know their fate, old fashioned common sense.