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  • The 'C' 5

    Hi all


    Yes, it's that time again.


    For another RD thread...

    A bit like Marmite I guess.



    The "C" 5 question...


    Connection, Clue, Coincidence, Conjecture or Codswallop?


    Here's the idea...



    1) - Kate Eddowes giving the name Mary Kelly shortly before she died and the next victim going by the same name; Mary Kelly. The name 'Kelly' also having possible links to other victims.

    2) - At least 3 of the victims (not restricted to the Canonical 5) being non Jews who were known to be working for the Jewish community.

    3) - The murders occurring on nights/mornings with poor weather conditions; heavy rain and wind.

    4) - John Arnold/Leary/Cleary etc... indicating a body had been found in Pinchin St....before the torso had even been placed.

    5) - At least 2 of the victims stating they were connected to 6 Fashion St; out of which a man named Marks Silverman ran a Chandlers shop and specialised in customised Walking Sticks. Marks Silverman ended up being sent to the insane asylum for Jews and listed as "incurable." His surname can be linked to another individual living in Duffield's yard.

    6) - When a woman walked into Cardiff police station and stated the man who cut Stride's throat was called Johnny Donnelley; having been told through a seance. A man named John Donnelly ran a stone masonry workshop within which was a furnace; from an address in Dorset Street; the exact same house in which Stride and Kidney resided just before Stride moved into Flower and Dean St. Donnelly's common law wife Alice subsequently had a fit in the same cellar and allegedly fell face first into the furnace, burning her face off in the process. Donnelly made the choice to care for her in the cellar as she sat unconscious and only raised the alarm 3 days later. Alice was eventually taken to the hospital where she fell into a coma and died as a result of her injuries. Donnelly miraculously escaped a manslaughter or murder charge when the coroner declared Alice had died of natural causes. This despite Donnelly's inexplicable delay in getting help.

    7)- When the man who threw a body part from a Torso victim over the fence and into the estate of Mary Shelley. Mary Shelley obviously wrote Frankenstein, but her mother died of a bacterial infection associated specifically with childbirth and her reproductive system, and died shortly after her baby Mary was born.

    8)- When the Home Office directly and successfully intervened in delaying Le Grand's scheduled release from jail and subsequently managing to deport him overseas.

    9)- When Albert Bachert stated in the press that it was interesting that with all the murders there were specific places where the killer could escape by releasing a latch and entering a nearby property...despite this only being applicable to the Whitehall torso, whereby a latch system was in place and known only to those who had access to the interior of the site. The Latch system escape route was never associated with any of the Ripper murder sites.


    10) - When it was discovered Francis Thompson had learned the same and relatively new and unorthodox surgical technique that the Ripper used to remove MJK's heart; by cutting out the heart from under the diaphragm.


    11) - When William Bury chose to mutilate his wife Post Mortem and inflict wounds similar to those used by the Ripper

    12) - When Nichols was slain just yards from the Coal Depot on Bucks Row; ran by a man who publicly attacked Albert Bachert in the press by trying to expose him as the head of the Skelton Army

    13) - Lusk being a theatre owner, builder and renovator and former member of the Board of Works. Lusk was subsequently targeted by the author of some of the alleged Ripper correspondences; referring to him as "Boss.'

    14) - The proximity to the train line and board of works owned land for nearly all the alleged victims; including Torso victims and those outside the Canonical 5.

    15)- The theatre connection; Jekyll and Hyde opening at the Lyceum just days before Tabram was slain. The Opera "The Jewess" playing in Plymouth, a show which revolves around the conflict between being Jewish or Christian and having to hide your identity.


    So... for each of those listed above

    Connection?
    Clue?
    Coincidence?
    Conjecture?
    Codswallop?


    All views and opinions most welcome


    Please ADD to the list above



    RD


    p.s.



    16) - When George Hutchinson stated he had spent time in Mary's company; implying that he knew her to some extent. This despite nobody corroborating his claim...

    However, based on my recent research into Hutchinson's possible antecedents; i've identified a woman who attended his wedding as an official witness...and who may just be the same woman we've been searching for for all this time.
    "Great minds, don't think alike"

  • #2
    Hi RD,

    2) It's interesting that none of the victims were Jewish, but considering that the murders occurred in an area with a high Jewish population, it's not surprising that 3 of the victims worked for Jewish people.

    8) Maybe they were acting intentionally. Maybe they wanted to deport him but needed a little more time to get their ducks in a row to make that possible.

    14) The murders occurred within a small area, so if one was close to a train line, it's not surprising that they all were.

    16) How much effort was made to see if Hutchinson's claim to know Mary could be corroborated?

    Comment


    • #3
      11. It's highly likely Bury was Jack.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi RD

        I am sorry but I cannot participate in this, as the list is unfortunately worded.

        Perhaps you're so focused on finding connections and coincidences that you end up phrasing them in a manner which tends to strengthen them, in what is ultimately a misleading manner.

        For instance:

        #4. As far as I know, Cleary did NOT indicate that a body had been found in Pinchin Street. He said Backchurch Lane. Nitpicking? or pointing out that you're to a large part constructing or strengthening these coincidences with your phrasing.

        #5 "At least 2 victims" - trying to imply that maybe more victims stated the same, when we know that it's not the case. So, why not just write "2 victims"? And who were the 2 victims who stated they were connected to nr. 6 Fashion Street? As far as I know only one did; the other mentioned to a friend that she lived in Fashion street but did not specify the house number. And when did Mark Silverman live there? You're implying he lived there in 1888, but can you substantiate that? "His surname can be linked" - this just means there was someone with the same surname living there, but you've yet to show they were related.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
          Hi RD

          I am sorry but I cannot participate in this, as the list is unfortunately worded.

          Perhaps you're so focused on finding connections and coincidences that you end up phrasing them in a manner which tends to strengthen them, in what is ultimately a misleading manner.

          For instance:

          #4. As far as I know, Cleary did NOT indicate that a body had been found in Pinchin Street. He said Backchurch Lane. Nitpicking? or pointing out that you're to a large part constructing or strengthening these coincidences with your phrasing.

          #5 "At least 2 victims" - trying to imply that maybe more victims stated the same, when we know that it's not the case. So, why not just write "2 victims"? And who were the 2 victims who stated they were connected to nr. 6 Fashion Street? As far as I know only one did; the other mentioned to a friend that she lived in Fashion street but did not specify the house number. And when did Mark Silverman live there? You're implying he lived there in 1888, but can you substantiate that? "His surname can be linked" - this just means there was someone with the same surname living there, but you've yet to show they were related.


          That's fair enough and I respect your views on this.


          Codswallop it is then!


          Haha!


          RD
          "Great minds, don't think alike"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            1) - Kate Eddowes giving the name Mary Kelly shortly before she died and the next victim going by the same name; Mary Kelly.
            Irrelevant. Eddowes gave a false name and address to the police.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            The name 'Kelly' also having possible links to other victims.
            Unproven tailchasing. It's easy to find meaningless name "links" like George Chapman and Annie Chapman.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            2) - At least 3 of the victims (not restricted to the Canonical 5) being non Jews who were known to be working for the Jewish community.
            I haven't seen evidence that even one of the victims was "known to be working for the Jewish community".

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            3) - The murders occurring on nights/mornings with poor weather conditions; heavy rain and wind.
            Incorrect. Most of those days had light, intermittent rain.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            4) - John Arnold/Leary/Cleary etc... indicating a body had been found in Pinchin St....before the torso had even been placed.
            Inaccurate. He claimed that he had been told a body had been found in Backchurch Lane, not Pinchin Street. He claimed it was a Ripper victim, not a Torso. His story changed repeatedly and he gave a false address.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            ​5) - At least 2 of the victims stating they were connected to 6 Fashion St; out of which a man named Marks Silverman ran a Chandlers shop and specialised in customised Walking Sticks. Marks Silverman ended up being sent to the insane asylum for Jews and listed as "incurable." His surname can be linked to another individual living in Duffield's yard.
            A mix of inaccurate and irrelevant. One victim gave a false address of 6 Fashion Street. Marks Silverman just happened to live there. There is no indication that he was violent and he does not appear to be related to the Abraham Silberman, who didn't move to England until after the murders.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            6) - When a woman walked into Cardiff police station and stated the man who cut Stride's throat was called Johnny Donnelley; having been told through a seance.
            We can safely disregard any "evidence" provided by a seance..

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            7)- When the man who threw a body part from a Torso victim over the fence and into the estate of Mary Shelley. Mary Shelley obviously wrote Frankenstein, but her mother died of a bacterial infection associated specifically with childbirth and her reproductive system, and died shortly after her baby Mary was born.
            That's random trivia that has nothing to do with the Torso Killings,

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            8)- When the Home Office directly and successfully intervened in delaying Le Grand's scheduled release from jail and subsequently managing to deport him overseas.
            Deporting a criminal like Le Grand makes sense. There's no evidence that Le Grand was the Ripper.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            9)- When Albert Bachert stated in the press that it was interesting that with all the murders there were specific places where the killer could escape by releasing a latch and entering a nearby property...despite this only being applicable to the Whitehall torso, whereby a latch system was in place and known only to those who had access to the interior of the site. The Latch system escape route was never associated with any of the Ripper murder sites.
            Press accounts are full of incorrect things. Why focus on this one?

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            10) - When it was discovered Francis Thompson had learned the same and relatively new and unorthodox surgical technique that the Ripper used to remove MJK's heart; by cutting out the heart from under the diaphragm.
            Why would there be a surgical technique for removing hearts? They certainly weren't doing transplants in the 1880s.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            11) - When William Bury chose to mutilate his wife Post Mortem and inflict wounds similar to those used by the Ripper
            The most likely reasons are that Bury was the Ripper or that he tried to imitate the Ripper. I favor the latter.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            ​12) - When Nichols was slain just yards from the Coal Depot on Bucks Row; ran by a man who publicly attacked Albert Bachert in the press by trying to expose him as the head of the Skelton Army
            Unrelated trivia.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            13) - Lusk being a theatre owner, builder and renovator and former member of the Board of Works. Lusk was subsequently targeted by the author of some of the alleged Ripper correspondences; referring to him as "Boss.'
            And?

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            14) - The proximity to the train line and board of works owned land for nearly all the alleged victims; including Torso victims and those outside the Canonical 5.
            I suspect you could find the same level of "connections" to pubs in the area. It means nothing.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            15)- The theatre connection; Jekyll and Hyde opening at the Lyceum just days before Tabram was slain. The Opera "The Jewess" playing in Plymouth, a show which revolves around the conflict between being Jewish or Christian and having to hide your identity.
            Those aren't connections to anything.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            16) - When George Hutchinson stated he had spent time in Mary's company; implying that he knew her to some extent. This despite nobody corroborating his claim...
            Nobody denied Hutchinson's claim, either.

            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            ​However, based on my recent research into Hutchinson's possible antecedents; i've identified a woman who attended his wedding as an official witness...and who may just be the same woman we've been searching for for all this time.​
            There were a lot of George Hutchisons floating around England at that time. What makes you think you have the correct one?
            Last edited by Fiver; 08-28-2024, 01:23 AM.
            "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

            "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fiver View Post

              Irrelevant. Eddowes gave a false name and address to the police.



              Unproven tailchasing. It's easy to find meaningless name "links" like George Chapman and Annie Chapman.



              I haven't seen evidence that even one of the victims was "known to be working for the Jewish community".



              Incorrect. Most of those days had light, intermittent rain.



              Inaccurate. He claimed that he had been told a body had been found in Backchurch Lane, not Pinchin Street. He claimed it was a Ripper victim, not a Torso. His story changed repeatedly and he gave a false address.



              A mix of inaccurate and irrelevant. One victim gave a false address of 6 Fashion Street. Marks Silverman just happened to live there. There is no indication that he was violent and he does not appear to be related to the Abraham Silberman, who didn't move to England until after the murders.



              We can safely disregard any "evidence" provided by a seance..



              That's random trivia that has nothing to do with the Torso Killings,



              Deporting a criminal like Le Grand makes sense. There's no evidence that Le Grand was the Ripper.



              Press accounts are full of incorrect things. Why focus on this one?



              Why would there be a surgical technique for removing hearts? They certainly weren't doing transplants in the 1880s.



              The most likely reasons are that Bury was the Ripper or that he tried to imitate the Ripper. I favor the latter.



              Unrelated trivia.



              And?



              I suspect you could find the same level of "connections" to pubs in the area. It means nothing.



              Those aren't connections to anything.



              Nobody denied Hutchinson's claim, either.



              There were a lot of George Hutchisons floating around England at that time. What makes you think you have the correct one?
              Fiver, one of the best responses to any of my posts.

              So essentially; a mix of Coincidences and Codswallop!


              But that's fine because your views embody the reason for me starting the thread in the first place.


              I appreciate your feedback and respect your views.


              RD
              "Great minds, don't think alike"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                Fiver, one of the best responses to any of my posts.

                So essentially; a mix of Coincidences and Codswallop!


                But that's fine because your views embody the reason for me starting the thread in the first place.


                I appreciate your feedback and respect your views.


                RD
                Thank you. I don't mean that Silverman shouldn't be investigated. But that should be based on his insanity, not a victim giving a false address.
                "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                  Thank you. I don't mean that Silverman shouldn't be investigated. But that should be based on his insanity, not a victim giving a false address.

                  Regarding Marks Silverman’s illness, the Metropolitan London Archives hold the records for Napsbury Hospital, where he was admitted as a patient on June 11th, 1912. Unfortunately, the collection doesn’t seem to include individual patient files. However, there are some registers, available for general access, which may contain information about Silverman’s condition and the circumstances leading to his death in 1913. These haven’t been digitized, so can be seen only by personal visit.

                  Anyone who lives near the Archives and is interested in learning more about Silverman might wish to look for him in the following volumes:
                  Index to Admissions – Male Patients, A – Z, 1905-1916, ref. H50/B/01/013
                  Civil Register of Admissions – Male Patients, 1910-1913, ref. H50/B/02/005

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Belloc View Post



                    Regarding Marks Silverman’s illness, the Metropolitan London Archives hold the records for Napsbury Hospital, where he was admitted as a patient on June 11th, 1912. Unfortunately, the collection doesn’t seem to include individual patient files. However, there are some registers, available for general access, which may contain information about Silverman’s condition and the circumstances leading to his death in 1913. These haven’t been digitized, so can be seen only by personal visit.

                    Anyone who lives near the Archives and is interested in learning more about Silverman might wish to look for him in the following volumes:
                    Index to Admissions – Male Patients, A – Z, 1905-1916, ref. H50/B/01/013
                    Civil Register of Admissions – Male Patients, 1910-1913, ref. H50/B/02/005
                    Amazing Belloc thank you!

                    I think it would be well worth identifying why he was deemed "incurable"

                    If there are any suggestion he was violent, used a knife or was abusive to his daughter and/wife, then it makes things all that more interesting.

                    I just find it curious how Eddowes gives a random address that matches Marks address before he was incarcerated.

                    It could be a complete red herring of course; but there's always that small nugget of possibility that it isn't.


                    RD
                    "Great minds, don't think alike"

                    Comment

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