Scotland Yard's House of Horrors

[Mark Hodgson]

Surely that's a washboard?

M.

Good point!

[Mark J D]

No need - there might already have been a ladder in Miller's Court.

Surely that's a washboard?

M.

[Barnaby]

Having recently been at such a museum in Savannah, GA, featuring memorabilia from John Wayne Gacy (including an impressive collection of his artwork) and Ed Gein, I'm less concerned about how this might inspire a murderer (although I concede it is possible), and more interested in our fascination by this sort of stuff, and how this hasn't changed over the last 150 years.

[Mark Hodgson]

A collapsible ladder would give the Ripper more options for escape, but I'm not sure about a burglar with a side line in serial killing.

No need - there might already have been a ladder in Miller's Court.

[The Rookie Detective]

Ah yes, thank you for the info on the Black Museum articles; I wasn't aware of those so I appreciate you telling me.

I can see what you mean about the bulkiness of the portable collapsible ladder used by burglars at the time, thet may not be as viable an option as i had initially thought.

With regards to the Silent system in prisons; it was used as an attempt to help reform prisoners rather than simply punish them through incarceration.
However the system has the opposite effect and it ended up being scrapped towards the end of the 19th century.

However, in the 1870's the Silent system was in full effect and incorporated at several prisons.

There was also a "Separation" system that focused on strict isolation and inmates weren't allowed to communicate with one another. This is the system whereby prisoners weren't allowed to talk.

But the Silent system to which I refer was different and somewhat harsher.
Inmates weren't permitted to make noise in general. There are reports of inmates being forced to move heavy objects like cannon balls in complete silence.

This was meant to act as a deterrent and to show people the error of their ways through mundane repetition and work being conducted in silence.

Both the Silent and Separation system were abolished.

But it is possible that a young man could have gone into Coldbath Fields prison for a lesser offense, and then been effectively taught how to work and carry out mundane tasks in silence, and thus inadvertently training a man how to carry out future crimes much more quietly.

With that training a man could do his time and come out with essential skills that could then be applied to more serious crimes later on down the line.

Like cutting and mutilating a woman in relative silence.


RD

[Kattrup]

That's an excellent point thank you.


So that proves that the Black Museum wasn't present at the new building until 1890, ergo, over a year after the Whitehall torso was found.

I still believe that the killer may have visited and been influenced by the Black Museum at the old site, that was open to the public at the time of the murders.

The Lipski case may have inspired Stride and Pinchin St
The Harriet lane case may have inspired the Whitehall torso
The Harriet Buswell case may have inspired Stride (fruit seller) and possibly MJK
The portable folding ladder gave a means to escape
The noiseless boots ensured the killer made minimal sound.
All of the above cases had artifacts in the Black museum at the old site, that could be viewed by anyone at the time.

As an aside, there's also Coldbath Fields prison in north London that has a strict "Silence" policy, that forced prisoners to undertake daily mundane tasks in complete silence.
Like training a ninja

If the killer had spent time incarcerated in Coldbath Fields and then used noiseless boots and a portable ladder that could be carried in a black bag, then there's a possible explanation as to how the killer was never heard or seen escaping the scene.


Just some random thoughts but certainly possible from a logistical standpoint


RD

I don’t personally find those ideas very convincing, but there’s a series of articles about the Black Museum in Strand Magazine, 1894, called “Crimes and Criminals”. Four parts, I think, with an add-on in 1895 about card tricksters.
The articles have photos and illustrations from the collection, among other things of the collapsible ladders used in burglaries.
While they were collapsible, they were still LVP tech, so made of wood etc and seem quite bulky.
But just wanted to point it out, if you hadn’t seen it.

As for the Silence-treatment training prisoners, I believe the silence mainly refers to prisoners being forbidden to speak, not to them moving or working silently?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi TRD

The plan Jerry graciously uploaded is dated 1943, as far as I can tell. So not useful for locating the Black Museum more than 50 years previously.

As for the killer or a killer being interested in the museum, according to Gordon Honeycombe, who’s written about stories from the black museum, SY did not begin even moving the museum into the new building until 1890.

Remember that when the victim was found on the premises, it was still a building site. In my opinion it’s highly unlikely that the killer could lure a woman onto the site.

That's an excellent point thank you.


So that proves that the Black Museum wasn't present at the new building until 1890, ergo, over a year after the Whitehall torso was found.

I still believe that the killer may have visited and been influenced by the Black Museum at the old site, that was open to the public at the time of the murders.

The Lipski case may have inspired Stride and Pinchin St
The Harriet lane case may have inspired the Whitehall torso
The Harriet Buswell case may have inspired Stride (fruit seller) and possibly MJK
The portable folding ladder gave a means to escape
The noiseless boots ensured the killer made minimal sound.
All of the above cases had artifacts in the Black museum at the old site, that could be viewed by anyone at the time.

As an aside, there's also Coldbath Fields prison in north London that has a strict "Silence" policy, that forced prisoners to undertake daily mundane tasks in complete silence.
Like training a ninja

If the killer had spent time incarcerated in Coldbath Fields and then used noiseless boots and a portable ladder that could be carried in a black bag, then there's a possible explanation as to how the killer was never heard or seen escaping the scene.


Just some random thoughts but certainly possible from a logistical standpoint


RD

[Kattrup]

Hi TRD

The plan Jerry graciously uploaded is dated 1943, as far as I can tell. So not useful for locating the Black Museum more than 50 years previously.

As for the killer or a killer being interested in the museum, according to Gordon Honeycombe, who’s written about stories from the black museum, SY did not begin even moving the museum into the new building until 1890.

Remember that when the victim was found on the premises, it was still a building site. In my opinion it’s highly unlikely that the killer could lure a woman onto the site.

[The Rookie Detective]

At the bottom of the plan you can read the words, Black Museum. The purple arrow is approximately where the torso was found.

Jerry that's excellent!

From the schematic it's clear the torso wasn't found in the same location, but it could be said that it's not far off. I can't be sure of distance between the 2 points but do you believe there could be a chance that the dumping of the torso coincided with the moving of the murder case artifacts from the previous site?

It also made me wonder whether that was the killers strategy all along

For example, the evidence would suggest that the Whitehall victim MAY have been murdered somewhere on site, ergo, she was alive when she accompanied her killer into the vault.

If that is true, then what would convince a woman to do that?

Imagine a scenario whereby the killer enticed her onto the site after hours/on a weekend then site was closed, to show her the black museum.
At that point I am guessing the Black Museum as shown on your floor plan was not yet full of items from the old site, but it was obviously planned because otherwise it wouldn't appear on the schematic.

Is the Black Museum the convincer that drew the victim onto the site?

Other than an army of workman on site, there are also Scotland Yard police officers who would have access to the site, particularly if they were involved with the Black Museum.

It's also interesting that the police officer who created the Black Museum apparently went on to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head after 2 other officers went to his home to question him on suspicious gambling transactions.

That may not be of any relevance whatsoever of course, but an interesting sideline nonetheless.


If we could find the date that the Black museum artifacts were transferred from the old site and/or when the new Black Museum as shown on your post, was opened; then that may bring everything into context.


Ultimately we have a torso killer dumping a dismembered woman on the same site that was due to hold a museum full of macabre artifacts from previous solved murder cases.

That may not be significant, but it could also be a key link at the same time.


RD


But what would draw a woman down onto that area?

[jerryd]

Would it be a coincidence if the area in which the Whitehall torso was dumped in 1888, was near to the new location of the room in which the murder artifacts were moved into from the old building?

RD

At the bottom of the plan you can read the words, Black Museum. The purple arrow is approximately where the torso was found.

[Scott Nelson]

There is also a fence near the Eddowes murder site that could have been scaled

Sutton was a bit too old to do this, especially when trying to carry Eddowes' body over his shoulder. He could have used a collapsible ladder as you suggest, but one was never recovered anywhere near the murder sites.

[The Rookie Detective]

A collapsible ladder would give the Ripper more options for escape, but I'm not sure about a burglar with a side line in serial killing.

Ah no, you missed my point slightly. I'm not suggesting he was a burglar, I'm suggesting he had a portable collapsible ladder.

To a fledgling serial killer, walking into the vault room at Scotland yard filled with macabre artifacts from previous murder cases, could act as a catalyst to begin his own spree of murders.
The room was opened to the public circa 1874 apparently and there was a signing-in book up until the mid 1890's, meaning if that ledger still exists, it should have the names of individuals who attended and viewed the room.

What's interesting is that the items were at some point transferred from the old building to New Scotland Yard.

Would it be a coincidence if the area in which the Whitehall torso was dumped in 1888, was near to the new location of the room in which the murder artifacts were moved into from the old building?

It's almost as though the Torso killer dumped the Whitehall torso as a means of copying the macabre room at the old Scotland yard building.

It could also indicate that the Torso killer was also responsible for one of the supposedly "solved" murder cases that the artifacts were taken from, i.e. Lipski, Lane, Buswell etc...

The Ripper may have bought a ticket/gained entry to the room as a regular visitor, but took IDEAS from what he saw and used them for his own murders.


Just an idea of course, but I find it odd that Scotland Yard had a small room dedicated to housing artifacts taken from previously solved murder cases, and at least 3 of those murders have been subsequently mentioned in relation to the Ripper and/or Torso killer.


RD

[Fiver]

A collapsible ladder would give the Ripper more options for escape, but I'm not sure about a burglar with a side line in serial killing.

[The Rookie Detective]

Is this the same place as the "Black Museum" or "Crime Museum?"


I thought that items were held at New Scotland Yard, but this article pre-dates the opening of New Scotland Yard.

That means the items in the room mentioned in the article, must have been moved and relocated to New Scotland Yard from the old building.



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


I stumbled across a newspaper article from January 1888 that relates directly to a Scotland Yard "House of Horrors" museum.


Based on the article, it appears that the police at Scotland Yard had a custom-built room that held certain artifacts from some of the key murder cases that had been committed over the years.

What's interesting is that the room doesn't appear to have been used as an evidence room; as one may expect, but rather as a room that held memorabilia from such crimes and that the room could be accessed with a request to a Chief Commissioner of Police, for permission to observe said artifacts.

I find that rather astonishing, but that's not all.


When you look at the specific crimes that are listed as having artifacts present in that room, several crimes have since been linked to particular persons of interest in both the unsolved Ripper and Torso killings.

But, considering that this is dated January 1888 and therefore before the Ripper killings; my question is this...

Did the Ripper have access to this room at some point and if so, was he inspired to go and begin committing murders of his own?


Here's the article in question...













So there we have a mention of several murders including...

Lipski's acid-burnt clothes from 1887
Fruit from the Coram Street Murder on Christmas day 1872
Harriet Lane's hair and bone from 1874

How macabre


What's also interesting is the mention of the burglar "Mr Peace" and his portable collapsible ladder and folding "Jemmy" (crowbar) and noiseless boots.


Now, let's imagine how a man who was able to gain entry to this museum of horrors MAY have been influenced by what he saw.

Did the Ripper get permission from the Police Commissioner to view this museum and then incorporate the ideas from what he saw from previous murder cases, to aid him in his subsequent murder spree of Autumn 1888?


And what if the Ripper had noiseless boots, a folding weapon, a false arm/leg brace to make him appear older, and a folding ladder that he could have used to escape?

What if the Ripper after murdering Nichols, opened his portable ladder, climbed over the fence, and used it to scale down the wall and onto the railway track?

What if he never left Bucks Row via road?

And the same applies to Stride; the man allegedly seen on the roof near the murder site. What if the Ripper went UPWARDS to escape?

And for Chapman, did the Ripper scale the fence in the garden and not escape via Hanbury Street?

There is also a fence near the Eddowes murder site that could have been scaled

And... let's also consider the Torso killer...

What if the torso killer used a similar method?

And was the Whitehall Torso dumped underneath the grounds of the New Scotland Yard building to honor the so-called "House of Horrors" room located at the old Scotland Yard building?

If the killer used a portable ladder, he could have escaped via the railway
If the killer had burglars noiseless boots, it may explain why nobody heard him.
If the killer walked awkwardly and/or with a gait, that may explain his potential theatrical appearance, ergo, he was playing a part. This may explain why his victims may not have expected him to be the Ripper.


I just find the idea that the police had a room at Scotland Yard that seems to bring together several cases that have since been potentially linked to the Ripper crimes, rather coincidental.

Was Jack the Ripper the ultimate copy cat killer?

Did he take inspiration from what had gone before him?


And what happened to this room and the macabre artifacts within? Did they go into Madame Tussauds?



Thoughts please?


RD