Wrong place, wrong time.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all...


So, my first of several intended threads to try and open up more extensive lines of debate...


In this thread, I'd like to take another look at Goldstein...but not in the conventional way as has been done endless times before.


I am very much a believer that the only way to gather knowledge concerning the bigger picture of this case; is to try and look outside the box and come at things from a different angle.

So here goes...


Goldstein was witnessed walking down Berner St by Mrs Mortimer and subsequently gave a statement to the police, accompanied by Wess to explain why he was in Berner Street at a time close to the time of the murder.

He was seen with a black shiny/leather bag which he later confessed was full of empty cigarette packets/boxes.

He had been at a local coffee house prior to the murder and had been passing down Berner Street on is way home.


okay...

Why was Goldstein in a hurry?... raining...understandable...but could the following be significant...

[The Rookie Detective]

"The trail of a case in which the crown sought to recover over fifteen hundred pounds as penalties for the fraudulent importation of tobacco from America concluded on Tuesday. Adolph Silverstein had pleaded guilty and the jury found a verdict of guilty against Isaac Woolf and Harris Goldstein, of Spitalfields; but acquitted Louis Goldstein. Mr Justice Day gave judgment against all the defendants except the last-named, and ordered immediate execution."


This was the case of a botched attempt to import tobacco from America...

Louis Goldstein who was acquitted was only around 18 at the time, but his father Harry was convicted.

Interestingly, Adolph Silverstein was a hairdresser who was a witness in a previous case relating to an attempt to entrap another Russian. During that case a rival Russian carrying a parcel full of counterfeit Russian currency tried to place it into the possession of his rival.

But this failed and the target of the sting was eventually found not guilty and acquitted...

BUT...

A certain Frederick Abberline was also a witness in the same case and he had a Russian informant working on the inside, who reported back to Abberline.

This case is featured in the Old Bailey records and was quite long and extensive, and one I would urge you all to read up on.

Essentially, Adolph Silverstein the barber who acted as a witness in the previous; and seemingly upstanding citizen, was later found guilty in the Tobacco case mentioned above.

The previous case involved counterfeit Russian currency, while the latter case involved illegally imported tobacco.

Interestingly, there may be a chance that Louis Goldstein who was acquitted in the case of illegally imported tobacco from America, could potentially be the same Leon Goldstein seen by Mortimer.


And so...

[The Rookie Detective]

Was Goldstein in the process of selling counterfeit Tobacco to the club?

There were several Cigar makers living in the same yard.

Now there's no evidence to suggest that Leon Goldstein was the same man acquitted in the illegal Tobacco importation case, but there are some striking coincidences...

A bag full of EMPTY cigarette cases...did he offload his stash of tobacco to the club?

And the American connection...

Joseph Lave had traveled from America and was in the yard around the time Stride was murdered.


Was Stride in the wrong place at the wrong time?


Or furthermore, was Stride a police informant, but the deal went wrong and she was murdered?


Schwartz gives a tantalizing clue...Cigar man

And the man seen by PC Smith with the parcel...was he the buyer?

was his parcel full of cash to buy the tobacco from Goldstein?

Was the Parcelman part of the sting operation?

Parcelman carried a parcel almost identical to the parcel carried in the previous sting operation which didn't work out...and so was the entire thing a setup to get the club shut down?

The case of Louis Goldstein being acquitted but his father being sentenced occurred in December 1887...

Lots to ponder.... and hopefully a fresh look that doesn't involve a man called Richardson!!


thoughts and feedback please?


RD

[Pcdunn]

Interesting conjectures!

One way to try to see if the Leon Goldstein seen by a witness with a bag containing empty cigarette boxes is the young Goldstein dismissed without charges is to check their ages.

Wasn't the son let off listed as 18 years old? What about the case carrier-- was he that young??

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This was the case of a botched attempt to import tobacco from America...

Louis Goldstein who was acquitted was only around 18 at the time, but his father Harry was convicted.


Interestingly, there may be a chance that Louis Goldstein who was acquitted in the case of illegally imported tobacco from America, could potentially be the same Leon Goldstein seen by Mortimer.

According to this census find by Chris Scott ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/1876-leon-goldstein?p=81628#post81628

... if that is the correct identification of black bag man, then he was 22 in 1888. What year was the tobacco import case?

Perhaps the Phibey family that this Leon Goldstein was visiting, could be of interest.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was Goldstein in the process of selling counterfeit Tobacco to the club?

Was Stride in the wrong place at the wrong time?


Or furthermore, was Stride a police informant, but the deal went wrong and she was murdered?


Schwartz gives a tantalizing clue...Cigar man

And the man seen by PC Smith with the parcel...was he the buyer?

was his parcel full of cash to buy the tobacco from Goldstein?

Was the Parcelman part of the sting operation?

Parcelman carried a parcel almost identical to the parcel carried in the previous sting operation which didn't work out...and so was the entire thing a setup to get the club shut down?

Can you elaborate on the parcel in the previous operation?

As for the reason for Stride's presence in the yard and general neighbourhood, and her parcel carrying 'companion', I would suggest that the cachous/sweetmeats is the best clue. Consider the following press report snippets.

MA, Oct 1: The yard in which the Berner street murder was committed, though it must have been a secluded place, yet at that hour of the morning it was not, according to the testimony of the inhabitants, a likely place to choose for either immorality or murder. And on Saturday night this was notably so, for a Jewish club at the corner of the yard was holding revelry at the very time the crime was discovered, and only twenty minutes before members of the club had come out to get a breath of fresh air and had seen nothing unusual. The yard was stocked with costermongers' barrows, and one o'clock is not late for those articles to be trundled home.

So we have costermonger barrows in the yard. In proximity to the crowds surrounding Mitre Square, we see what they were selling on the day of the murders ...

ELO, Oct 6: On the outskirts of this vast chattering, excited assemblage of humanity, costermongers, who sold everything in the way of edibles, from fish and bread to fruits and sweets, and newspaper vendors whose hoarse cries only added to the confusion of sounds heard on every hand, were doing exceedingly large trades.

Even Louis Diemschitz may have sold cachous ...

DN, Oct 1: Jews and Socialists frequent the club, and until an early hour in the morning dancing and singing often take place within its walls. The house is in charge of a man and his wife, who sleep on the premises. The man possesses a pony-cart, with which he is usually out during the greater part of the day, selling, it is said, cocoanuts and sweets. It was this man who, on returning in the cart at one o'clock yesterday morning, discovered the body.

Stride was found with a cachous packet in her left hand, and perhaps an empty piece of paper in her right hand, which had contained who knows what. Is the association of cachous with costermongers, just a coincidence?

As for the man with a parcel, the size and shape of this parcel as approximated by PC Smith, is similar to a modern shopping bag. What's he doing with a bag of that size, on the street and after midnight? I wonder if he and Stride were involved with theft?

Here's a press report mentioning a parcel wrapped in newspaper.

[Paul Sutton]

Was Goldstein in the process of selling counterfeit Tobacco to the club?

There were several Cigar makers living in the same yard.

Now there's no evidence to suggest that Leon Goldstein was the same man acquitted in the illegal Tobacco importation case, but there are some striking coincidences...

A bag full of EMPTY cigarette cases...did he offload his stash of tobacco to the club?

And the American connection...

Joseph Lave had traveled from America and was in the yard around the time Stride was murdered.


Was Stride in the wrong place at the wrong time?


Or furthermore, was Stride a police informant, but the deal went wrong and she was murdered?


Schwartz gives a tantalizing clue...Cigar man

And the man seen by PC Smith with the parcel...was he the buyer?

was his parcel full of cash to buy the tobacco from Goldstein?

Was the Parcelman part of the sting operation?

Parcelman carried a parcel almost identical to the parcel carried in the previous sting operation which didn't work out...and so was the entire thing a setup to get the club shut down?

The case of Louis Goldstein being acquitted but his father being sentenced occurred in December 1887...

Lots to ponder.... and hopefully a fresh look that doesn't involve a man called Richardson!!


thoughts and feedback please?


RD

Great stuff - I share your frustration and applaud your aim.

The area was crawling with spivs and chancers - no blame to them, life was hard - but I love reading things like your extract on the trial.

As much as anything for the wonderful use of language: "Mr Justice Day gave judgment against all the defendants except the last-named, and ordered immediate execution."

So, a capital offence!

(yes, I know it means immediate application of the sentence).

Best,

Paul

[Fiver]

According to this census find by Chris Scott ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/1876-leon-goldstein?p=81628#post81628

... if that is the correct identification of black bag man, then he was 22 in 1888. What year was the tobacco import case?

Perhaps the Phibey family that this Leon Goldstein was visiting, could be of interest.

The tobacco import case was in 1887. According to the 19 September 1887 Daily Telegraph, that Leon Goldstein was age 20.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The tobacco import case was in 1887. According to the 19 September 1887 Daily Telegraph, that Leon Goldstein was age 20.

Thanks Fiver

[The Rookie Detective]

Thanks Fiver

My apologies for the delay responding to you.

Yes, the case of the imported Tobacco was late 1887.


It appears that Louis Goldstein; acquitted in the tobacco case, is unlikely to be the same Leon Goldstein present in Berner Street.
This is based on their respective ages.

That said, the idea that Leon Goldstein in Berner Street may have been selling illegally imported tobacco may have been a possibility.

He may have also been the buyer.

The coffee shop he frequented prior to his arrival on Berner Street may also have been relevant.

I have found another Leon Goldstein who may be of importance... details to follow...



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Great stuff - I share your frustration and applaud your aim.

The area was crawling with spivs and chancers - no blame to them, life was hard - but I love reading things like your extract on the trial.

As much as anything for the wonderful use of language: "Mr Justice Day gave judgment against all the defendants except the last-named, and ordered immediate execution."

So, a capital offence!

(yes, I know it means immediate application of the sentence).

Best,

Paul

Thank you kindly for your post.

Yes, I like a good news extract. While some papers like The Star can be sensationalist and subjective, other newspapers can sometimes shed new light onto proceedings.

I have found some real gems of information over recent times which may (or may not) be of use to the case.


I'm very much a fan of hypothesis and looking a things from a different angle and I find it amazing how even after all this time, there is still so much more to discover about this case.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My apologies for the delay responding to you.

A day or so? That's nothing, but thanks anyway.

Yes, the case of the imported Tobacco was late 1887.


It appears that Louis Goldstein; acquitted in the tobacco case, is unlikely to be the same Leon Goldstein present in Berner Street.
This is based on their respective ages.

That said, the idea that Leon Goldstein in Berner Street may have been selling illegally imported tobacco may have been a possibility.

He may have also been the buyer.

The coffee shop he frequented prior to his arrival on Berner Street may also have been relevant.

Perhaps that is why Goldstein wasn't keen to go to the police. Do you think the police checked out the coffee shop?

I have found another Leon Goldstein who may be of importance... details to follow...

Presumably you don't think the Leon Goldstein found in the census, is necessarily the correct one?

[Paul Sutton]

Thank you kindly for your post.

Yes, I like a good news extract. While some papers like The Star can be sensationalist and subjective, other newspapers can sometimes shed new light onto proceedings.

I have found some real gems of information over recent times which may (or may not) be of use to the case.


I'm very much a fan of hypothesis and looking a things from a different angle and I find it amazing how even after all this time, there is still so much more to discover about this case.


RD

Thanks for yours! I suspect I've found someone of a similar bent to me here - thank God.

I'm interested in hypothesis above all! And those original sources are a joy. Each to his own, but the Richardson thread is a sight to see!