Blood Spray from Decapitation

[lynn cates]

Blackwell

Hello Jon.

"I was making allowances for Blackwell's comment:
"...The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground.""

Score yet another point. We sometimes forget that the theory I espouse was originally his.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right-o

Hello Errata.

"I always pictured "cutting as she fell" to be simply one fluid motion. He came up behind her as she was walking, jerked her backward off her feet so she essentially fell into his chest, cut her throat, and stepped back so so that she would complete the fall."

Well, that makes two of us.

Well done!

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

I always pictured "cutting as she fell" to be simply one fluid motion. He came up behind her as she was walking, jerked her backward off her feet so she essentially fell into his chest, cut her throat, and stepped back so so that she would complete the fall. Which might have resulted in the killer blocking the initial spray spray from the cut getting onto the wall.

Fell into his chest, then he cut her throat? So her neck at that point was what, 4 feet from the ground? If this is the case where did the blood issuing from the wound (Dr Philips called it a spray) end up?

[Observer]

Hello Jon.

"I was making allowances for Blackwell's comment:
"...The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground.""

Score yet another point. We sometimes forget that the theory I espouse was originally his.

Cheers.
LC

So Dr Philips theory regarding the position of the body when cut is of no consequence? And lets not forget that Dr Blackwell also stated "or when she was on the ground".

[Errata]

Fell into his chest, then he cut her throat? So her neck at that point was what, 4 feet from the ground? If this is the case where did the blood issuing from the wound (Dr Philips called it a spray) end up?

Presumably on the killer.

But it's also possible she simply wasn't close enough to the wall to spray it with blood. Positionally if not actually. Firstly, the pose in which she was found was the pose in which she died, not the one in which she was killed (or attacked, if that makes more sense). Whether it be because she lived long enough to curl up or because the killer was going to drag her somewhere we don't know. But her left carotid was severed, so if she in fact is jerked back against someone for the throat cut the he has to turn his body out of the way of the path of the knife, which would turn her body so that the left carotid was facing downward. Not at the wall.

Similarly the killer may have tossed her more towards the wall than he pulled her. Her feet likely were not far from where they started, but he could have jerked her towards him when he was in the street, and then essentially heaved her at the wall to fall. With a light enough rain and a functioning runoff, without the actual topography of the street, we don't know that bloodstains in the street wouldn't be washed off. Similarly we can't be sure that this whole thing happened from behind. It could have happened from the front, putting the wound in question facing away from the wall. And it could have happened on the ground. But he didn't cut her throat when she was curled on her side. But since we don't know what position she was in when her throat was cut, we can't say that there should or should not blood anywhere.

Just because I can picture the scenario doesn't means I'm in favor of it.

But when considering blood spray, think of this. People who slit their wrists generate maybe one single jet of a fine spray for the duration of a single pulse. Very fine. And it's not strong. Generally the wound gushes blood. A slit wrist is deadly because of the radial artery. Smaller than the carotid, more prone to spray. But it doesn't. Why?

[Observer]

The only blood that Dr Philips detected was next to her throat, and a trail of blood stretching from her neck to the club door. He deduced that the throat had been cut while she was in the position as found, lying prone on the ground. It's not rocket science, it's pretty obvious in fact, if I can pick up on it, then it must be pretty obvious. I reckon he did not consider any other theory, other than the one he stated at inquest, and neither can I. That's all I have to say on the matter, I can not picture any other scenario.

[lynn cates]

got it

Hello Errata.

"which would turn her body so that the left carotid was facing downward. Not at the wall."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Precisely. Just like that.

So the carotid artery opens up and the stream is directed downwards. Let me guess, presumably the body then covers the blood, and the remaining blood flows down the yard into the drain.

One thing, no blood was found on the clothing. And another thing, no blood was observed by Dr Philips other than that which was immediately left of the neck, and that which flowed into the drain

Dr Philips yet again, his ears must be burning.

[Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth? - Yes.
[Coroner] The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
[Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else? - I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body."

Examined for blood in the yard "carefully".

And there can be no doubt that Dr Philips searched very carefully, carefull enough in fact to spot those tiny cachous that Blackwell had spilled onto the ground

Dr Philips again

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

[Observer]

Forget about Liz Stride lying in her own blood. If Liz Stride had been cut before hitting the ground, considering the trajectory of the falling body, blood would have soiled her clothing, no doubt about it.

[Errata]

Why are people so insistent there had to be spray? Just because someone bleeds with force doesn't mean some comical lawn sprinkler action.

[Observer]

And why are people so insistent that Liz Stride held her hands to her throat, after she was cut, or that she was cut out on the street, the blood being washed away by the rain, or the ridiculous notion that she was cut as she was falling, the blood being directed towards the ground which then failed to soil her clothes.

And where have I intimated that the blood flow mimicked some comical lawn sprinkler action?

You are really trying to tell me, that the blood, should she have been cut whilst falling would miraculously have pooled right next to her neck, and then drained away to club doorway? No splatter as it hit the ground? Completely missing her left shoulder? Indeed missing all her garments? This is most definitely my last post on this matter. If you want to believe that Liz Stride was cut as she was falling ,then dream on.

[Errata]

And why are people so insistent that Liz Stride held her hands to her throat, after she was cut, or that she was cut out on the street, the blood being washed away by the rain, or the ridiculous notion that she was cut as she was falling, the blood being directed towards the ground which then failed to soil her clothes.

And where have I intimated that the blood flow mimicked some comical lawn sprinkler action?

You are really trying to tell me, that the blood, should she have been cut whilst falling would miraculously have pooled right next to her neck, and then drained away to club doorway? No splatter as it hit the ground? Completely missing her left shoulder? Indeed missing all her garments? This is most definitely my last post on this matter. If you want to believe that Liz Stride was cut as she was falling ,then dream on.

First of all, the question about spray wasn't directed at you. If it had been directed at you, I would have quoted your comment, or addressed you by name. So take a breath. There is in a fact a general notion that throat cuts cause arterial spray, and often they don't. Gushing, sheeting, pulsing, sure. But not spray. And I don't know where the idea of spray comes from. Not that it can't happen, but it just as often doesn't. Having seen several arterial injuries in my day, and having had a few myself, I honestly have a hard time picturing even an arterial spurt hitting the wall even a foot away. And I have high blood pressure. So I don't know why the assumption is for spray as opposed to against if both are equally possible.

Second, I don't think her throat was cut while falling. I think her throat was cut while she was on the ground. I just don't think it was cut while she was turned on her side. If for no other reason than that the mechanics of that are awkward. Personally, I think she had just enough life left in her after he ran that she started to curl into fetal position. But that's a guess and I'd never represent it otherwise.

Thirdly, while I think her throat was cut on the ground, I don't KNOW. I can see other scenarios. I may not find them as likely, but I can see it. I can see her throat being cut on the way down because I know that can happen. I have seen the results. So it's possible. Many things are possible. Just because I can see the argument well enough to try and explain what the coroner meant doesn't mean I believe it. But just because I think I know what happened doesn't mean I'm right. It doesn't mean that I cannot entertain other ideas.

[Observer]

Dr Philips was of the opinion that Liz Stride would not have had the energy to turn over onto her side after having her throat cut. In effect he's saying that Liz Stride's throat was cut whilst she was lying on her side, the position in which she was found. If I'm not mistaken, Tom Wescott believes that this is the reason why the cut to Liz Stride's throat was not as severe as the cuts which were administered to the other Whitechapel victims. I tend to agree with him. However, I concede, that it is entirely possible that Liz Stride was not lying on her side when cut, and that her killer turned her over onto her side. I also concede that it's possible that Liz Stride had a little life left in her, and rolled over onto her side, as you suggest.

Regarding Mr Cates scenario, and the possibility of blood stains being visible on the club wall should Liz Stride have been falling as she was cut.

Mr Cates has suggested that the killer, from behind, caught hold of Liz Strides scarf and pulled her backwards, and as she fell she twisted to her left, the killer at this point, as she was falling, took his knife and cut her throat. She was then lowered to the ground alighting on her left side.

In my opinion, should this have been the case, the momentum of the body, and consequently the neck twisting to the left would have resulted in the blood from the wound being projected farther than if the body had merely fell backwards. Centrifugal force being the factor here. Much the same way in which water issuing from a hosepipe can be projected farther if the hosepipe is swung in a circular direction.

Of course no such staining of blood was found on the club house wall

[lynn cates]

taking sides

Hello Errata.

"I just don't think it was cut while she was turned on her side. If for no other reason than that the mechanics of that are awkward."

Completely agree--VERY awkward. But IF she were on the ground in ANY position save left side, her dress should have been wet and muddy that side. It wasn't.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

If the cut to the throat was executed after the killer took hold of her scarf and pulled and twisted it to cause her to lose balance and fall backwards to her left...there may have been little spray. I say this because I believe the cut was above the scarf, just under her jaw line, and the scarf, being tight at this point, may have prevented a spurt or spray.

Cheers