Height of serial killers

[Aethelwulf]

Apparently, Rex Heuermann is 6-6 tall. Some other well-known serial killer heights are:

• Kemper 6-9
• Stephen Port 6-3
• Robert Napper 6-2
• Robert Black 6-2
• Nilsen 6-1
• Ramirez 6-1
• Ian Brady 6-0
• Bellfield 6-0
• Bundy, Ridgway, Gacy: 5-10
• Peter Manual 5-4
• Peter Kurten 5-4
• Crippen 5-3

There are also some well-known more average height killers, Sutcliffe and West being two (5-8; 5-7).

A prediction in the FBI’s ripper profile is that he would have been above or below average in height (adjusted to the late Victorian period). A paper published in the journal Oxford Economic Papers gives male average height in the UK as 5’4” (1871-1875) and 5’5” (1896-1900).

Obviously being tall or short doesn’t make you a serial killer, but it looks like it may combine with other risk factors for some. What does it mean for the ripper? My feeling is that he was on the shorter side, considering Long and Levy, if they are correct sightings. I also consider Farmer's man - the short thick fellow with a fair mustache. Both Chapman and Eddowes were 5ft and in both cases the man was estimated as not much taller. Before anyone blows up a storm about Lawende, I think his estimate is perfectly reconcilable with Levy, and I would point out Levy fairly accurately described the woman as being 5ft ‘or so’ (Eddowes being 5ft). To my mind the important ‘or so’ means +/- 2 to 3 inches. The man being an estimated 3 inches taller by levy effectively brings Lawende and Levy together.

In terms of suspects we have Tumblety on the tall side (6-1 I believe) and Bury the seemingly classic angry little man (5-2).

My questions are: 1 – is there anything in this above/below average height issue, or is it just due to what is in reality a very small sample size. Has anymore research been done on this?

2 – if it is important, why would that be? Only thing that springs to mind is being unusually tall or short in childhood/adolescence could make you a target for bullies and perhaps rejection by the opposite sex (or same for Port for example) for looking unusual. Combined with other factors such as unstable home life/abusive etc it becomes an issue.

Thoughts on the height issue in general and the ripper’s height?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wouldn’t too read much into the height issue Wulf but that’s only my opinion and not based on any kind of study or specific reading. Your point 2 is certainly worth mentioning though. We know that childhood bullying can have its effects and the smallest and weakest are the ones that get picked on. Bury was only 5’2” which would have made him just an inch taller than Ronnie Corbett and 8 inches below todays average but he would only have been 2 or 3 inches below adult average in 1888. But…..as an example, my middle brother was a much shorter than I was when we were kids but he’s now 6’4”. So Bury could have had a bit of a growth spurt and might have been exceptionally short as a kid.

Remind me Wulf….was Bury actually with his dad when he was killed?

[Aethelwulf]

I wouldn’t too read much into the height issue Wulf but that’s only my opinion and not based on any kind of study or specific reading. Your point 2 is certainly worth mentioning though. We know that childhood bullying can have its effects and the smallest and weakest are the ones that get picked on. Bury was only 5’2” which would have made him just an inch taller than Ronnie Corbett and 8 inches below todays average but he would only have been 2 or 3 inches below adult average in 1888. But…..as an example, my middle brother was a much shorter than I was when we were kids but he’s now 6’4”. So Bury could have had a bit of a growth spurt and might have been exceptionally short as a kid.

Remind me Wulf….was Bury actually with his dad when he was killed?

Perhaps it is nothing but I just wondered why the profilers flagged that as an attribute. And when rex the 'ogre' was revealed I thought perhaps there is something in it. Likewise if the ripper was married the profile says to someone older, as bury was. Is that to do with some motherly issue/lack of mother? Would need to check but believe bury was 1 when his father was killed and 4 when his mother died in Worcester asylum. One thing I did notice from modern studies is that for boys growing up with an absent father, on average, it increases the risk of all sorts of bad stuff in terms of prospects, relationships, criminality etc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps it is nothing but I just wondered why the profilers flagged that as an attribute. And when rex the 'ogre' was revealed I thought perhaps there is something in it. Likewise if the ripper was married the profile says to someone older, as bury was. Is that to do with some motherly issue/lack of mother? Would need to check but believe bury was 1 when his father was killed and 4 when his mother died in Worcester asylum. One thing I did notice from modern studies is that for boys growing up with an absent father, on average, it increases the risk of all sorts of bad stuff in terms of prospects, relationships, criminality etc.

What I meant was did Bury actually witness his father being killed? Losing him would have been traumatic enough but if he’d seen it happen? Bury certainly enough in his childhood to provide at least food for thought. No need for any of the imaginings that we often get from some of the weaker suspects.

[John Wheat]

What I meant was did Bury actually witness his father being killed? Losing him would have been traumatic enough but if he’d seen it happen? Bury certainly enough in his childhood to provide at least food for thought. No need for any of the imaginings that we often get from some of the weaker suspects.

Hi Herlock. No Bury didn't witness his father being killed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock. No Bury didn't witness his father being killed.

Hello John,

Thanks for that. I couldn’t recall if he was actually there but checking up I now realise that it happened when Bury was too far young to have been aware of it. For some reason I’d been remembering him as 7 or 8 when his dad was killed.

[Bridewell]

I guess almost everybody is either above or below average height - anyone in fact who isn't exactly that tall. I don't think the FBI profile (based, as I believe it was, on a brief outline of the case) can be a useful tool in safely identifying or eliminating any suspect.

[Aethelwulf]

I don't think the FBI profile (based, as I believe it was, on a brief outline of the case) can be a useful tool in safely identifying or eliminating any suspect.

Wasn't the point of the post. I was just reminded of this comment in the profile following the arrest of the very tall Heuermann and wondered whether there was anything in it, if so why.

I think the profile is potentially useful as a screening tool. If a suspect aligns with it, it's worth a further look. Might turn out the suspect was in prison or abroad, if not, is there anything else that is of note etc. Dismissing it out of hand belongs to the group of professional fence sitters on here for whom nothing at all is potentially useful.

I belive John Douglas wrote the 7 page profile. Just looking at a few snippets of his background I see that:

• While traveling around the country providing instruction to police, Douglas began interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons. He interviewed some of the most notable violent criminals in recent history as part of the study, including David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, Lynette Fromme, Sara Jane Moore, Edmund Kemper, James Earl Ray, Sirhan Sirhan, Richard Speck, Donald Harvey and Joseph Paul Franklin. He used the information gleaned from these interviews in the book Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives, followed by the Crime Classification Manual (CCM). Douglas later received two Thomas Jefferson Awards for academic excellence from the University of Virginia for his work on the study

• Douglas's profile was instrumental in the arrest and conviction of Robert Hansen. Douglas thought the killer would be an experienced hunter with low self-esteem, have a history of being rejected by women, and would feel compelled to keep "souvenirs" of his murders, such as a victim's jewelry. He also suggested that the assailant might stutter. This profile led investigators to Hansen, who fit the profile down to the stutter. Upon executing a search warrant, "souvenirs" in the form of his victim’s jewelry were found at his residence

• He created and managed the FBI's Criminal Profiling Program, now called the Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU), and was later promoted to unit chief of the Investigative Support Unit, a division of the FBI's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC)

Ok so the profile may be incorrect, perhaps in many areas, some may be more useful than others, but if someone with actual experience of analysing and tracking down serial killers makes comments they are surely worth considering rather than the know it all line, it means nothing.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think his estimate is perfectly reconcilable with Levy

There was a cold case recently solved in my neck of the woods.

A witness almost certainly saw the convicted murderer (convicted on a DNA basis). It is almost certain the witness saw the murderer because he was with a young child (the victim) late at night, very close to the murder scene and very close to the time of the murder. No other young child would have been out at that time of night and certainly not with a man. The man and the young child were captured on CCTV also, again very close to the murder scene and TOD.

Anyway, the witness gave the murderer's height as 5'7, but it turned out he was 6'0.

[Fiver]

A prediction in the FBI’s ripper profile is that he would have been above or below average in height (adjusted to the late Victorian period).

This part of the description could apply to Peter Dinklage or Dwayne Johnson, so it's completely useless.

[Aethelwulf]

This part of the description could apply to Peter Dinklage or Dwayne Johnson, so it's completely useless.

Yeah I know crazy isn't it - I wonder what their alibis for the whitechapel murders were though? Did anyone check them out?

I did say 'Obviously being tall or short doesn’t make you a serial killer, but it looks like it may combine with other risk factors for some'. Talk about over reaction of several people to this. I was merely reminded of this statement in the profile when Rex H was arrested and wondered if there was anything in it. Perhaps if there were other things as well, like abusive background etc looking unusually tall or short might be a focus for bullies etc.

[Fiver]

Yeah I know crazy isn't it - I wonder what their alibis for the whitechapel murders were though? Did anyone check them out?

I did say 'Obviously being tall or short doesn’t make you a serial killer, but it looks like it may combine with other risk factors for some'. Talk about over reaction of several people to this. I was merely reminded of this statement in the profile when Rex H was arrested and wondered if there was anything in it. Perhaps if there were other things as well, like abusive background etc looking unusually tall or short might be a focus for bullies etc.

How is it overreaction to point out that some parts of the 1988 Ripper profile are fairly useless.
* He's either above or below average height.
* He's between the ages of 28 and 36, unless he isn't.
* "He drinks in the local pubs and after a few spirits, he becomes more relaxed and finds it easier to engage in conversation." - just like everybody else.

Profiling is vastly overrated. The FBI profile was based on the organized-disorganized model, before even the introduction of the idea that there were mixed offenders, which the Ripper likely was under that model. IIRC, somebody was coming out with a book with a more modern attempt at profiling. I'd be interested in seeing what they came up with.