What are the chances of….?

[etenguy]

I agree.

How long would Eddowes have waited in the Square for a prospective customer to appear, knowing that within the next ten minutes or so a policeman would enter the Square?

Hi PI

Yes, if Eddowes entered the square alone it was likely for a different reason than soliciting - but as Herlock mentions, it may have been a route to somewhere else she wanted to be. However, I agree with the general consensus that she most likely entered with a man to conduct her business but was instead met with murder.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

the regular patrols suggest to me that Mitre Square was not likely to be soliciting ground.

I agree.

How long would Eddowes have waited in the Square for a prospective customer to appear, knowing that within the next ten minutes or so a policeman would enter the Square?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I believe we discussed this on another thread, so I'll just cut and paste:

Derby Daily Telegraph 1 October 1888:
"indeed one of the policemen who saw the body [Eddowes] in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighbourhood of Aldgate High Street. . . . The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman [Watkins] pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose".

And this:
New York Times, Oct 2 1888:
"The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him. . . . a policeman swears he was not absent over 15 minutes from Mitre-Square, and must have been watched by both man and woman as he went through, they following".

Aldgate station, where Eddowes was arrested for being drunk, and across the road from Butcher's Row, where Sagar had a suspect under surveillance. What are the chances of her returning to meet a person with whom she had become inebriated earlier in the evening?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Ah, yes, there are those reports by the watchboy on Aldgate, although I had forgotten about them at the time of my previous post. I was referring just to the immediate areas for the 3 possible entrances to Mitre Square with regards to "no couples reported". Still, you are correct in that there was another couple mentioned. All the same, a couple spotted on Aldgate would still have to enter Mitre Square by one of those 3, and if the Aldgate couple seen by the watchboy is not the same as the Church Passage Couple, it would suggest they entered through one of the other routes. Or, if the Aldgate Couple is the CPC, but not Eddowes, again Eddowes must have entered a different way.

Reading over The Derby Daily Telegraph again, it doesn't actually report a sighting of Eddowes with a man, only it reports that Eddowes was seen around Aldgate High Street, the man is just part of the "police theory", etc.

The watchboy does say he saw a man and woman, but of course the woman is never identified by the watchboy as being Eddowes, so it could be something innocent like a man walking his fiancé home, but because they headed towards Mitre Square it sounds sinister. It is still an interesting addition to think about though. Thanks for the reminder.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

There are no other statements specifically mentioning a couple comprising a male and a female, other than Blenkinsop's newspaper report of someone asking him if he saw a couple. He doesn't confirm that he did, but he does allude to there being people around. Unfortunately, that is so vague that we don't know if "people" includes a male and female couple. He also doesn't indicate anyone was seen coming or going from the passage to Mitre Square.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I believe we discussed this on another thread, so I'll just cut and paste:

Derby Daily Telegraph 1 October 1888:
"indeed one of the policemen who saw the body [Eddowes] in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighbourhood of Aldgate High Street. . . . The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman [Watkins] pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose".

And this:
New York Times, Oct 2 1888:
"The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him. . . . a policeman swears he was not absent over 15 minutes from Mitre-Square, and must have been watched by both man and woman as he went through, they following".

Aldgate station, where Eddowes was arrested for being drunk, and across the road from Butcher's Row, where Sagar had a suspect under surveillance. What are the chances of her returning to meet a person with whom she had become inebriated earlier in the evening?

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

I forgot about that one Al and I haven’t even mentioned the aardvark.

indeed, I was about mention him myself.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Indeed - entirely possible - but given the logistics of the night it seems to me to add to the circumstances which support that Lawende likely saw jtR - but you are right - it's not conclusive

I agree that the man that the three witnesses saw was likeliest to be the killer Eten. But as you say, nothing is conclusive.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or on the way back? From Goulston St? After changing a 'sanitary napkin'? Think outside the box Herlock...

I forgot about that one Al and I haven’t even mentioned the aardvark.

[etenguy]

But couldn’t she have been crossing Mitre Square on the way to somewhere though?

Indeed - entirely possible - but given the logistics of the night it seems to me to add to the circumstances which support that Lawende likely saw jtR - but you are right - it's not conclusive

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

But couldn’t she have been crossing Mitre Square on the way to somewhere though?

Or on the way back? From Goulston St? After changing a 'sanitary napkin'? Think outside the box Herlock...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

I was actually coming at it from the other direction. Eddowes had no reason to go into Mitre square unless she had a punter in tow - unless the square was used for soliciting. which I am not sure it was. I see from Al Bundy's Eyes' post he doesn't think the square was used for soliciting either so unlikely Eddowes went there unless it was with a punter.

But couldn’t she have been crossing Mitre Square on the way to somewhere though?

[etenguy]

Hi Eten,

I take your point of course but I wasn’t suggesting that he was lying in wait for a prostitute in Mitre Square if that’s what you thought that I’d meant? Apologies if I was unclear. What I meant was that perhaps the killer just walked across Mitre Square (from Mitre Street or St James Passage) on his way to some likely location to find a victim and as he got near to Church Passage he saw Eddowes enter and so he stood back and waited for her to get into the square where he either propositioned her first or just put his hand over her mouth and took her into the shadows. I’d favour propositioned as it would have reduced the chances of her making a noise.

Hi Herlock

I was actually coming at it from the other direction. Eddowes had no reason to go into Mitre square unless she had a punter in tow - unless the square was used for soliciting. which I am not sure it was. I see from Al Bundy's Eyes' post he doesn't think the square was used for soliciting either so unlikely Eddowes went there unless it was with a punter.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Herlock

I think your OP is an interesting one and I have been interested in the posts that engaged with that. You choose a good example on which to hang the debate given how rarely that sighting is challenged. As you state, maybe the man with Eddowes was not JtR, who possibly met Eddowes moments later. Like other posters I think that unlikely, and Jeff Hamm's posts articulate well the reasons we have that support the possibility of the couple seen by Lawende and co as being Eddowes and JtR.

I wondered about Mitre Square and whether that was a regular haunt for prostitutes. In your paragraph I quoted here, you speculate the possibility that Eddowes was possibly spotted entering the square and was followed in by JtR. The probability of that scenario increases if Mitre Square was a location that prostitutes went to solicit for business. However, if that space were used solely for the conducting of business then it would support Eddowes entering with a punter in tow. I don't know the answer, but the regular patrols suggest to me that Mitre Square was not likely to be soliciting ground. Others might have better information and I'd be interested to know.

Hi E10,

I seem to recall nearby St Botolphs was an area for soliciting.
I don't imagine Mitre Square was used for soliciting, in that it would cease to be a secluded area to conduct business if punters were loitering around. Certainly with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes I can't realistically see anything other than them acquiring a customer and leading them to a secluded spot.

The time frame for another person other than Lawendes man is vanishingly small, if the couple sighted was Eddowes and a man, he's odds on the killer. You wouldn't hang him on that alone though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

I think your OP is an interesting one and I have been interested in the posts that engaged with that. You choose a good example on which to hang the debate given how rarely that sighting is challenged. As you state, maybe the man with Eddowes was not JtR, who possibly met Eddowes moments later. Like other posters I think that unlikely, and Jeff Hamm's posts articulate well the reasons we have that support the possibility of the couple seen by Lawende and co as being Eddowes and JtR.

I wondered about Mitre Square and whether that was a regular haunt for prostitutes. In your paragraph I quoted here, you speculate the possibility that Eddowes was possibly spotted entering the square and was followed in by JtR. The probability of that scenario increases if Mitre Square was a location that prostitutes went to solicit for business. However, if that space were used solely for the conducting of business then it would support Eddowes entering with a punter in tow. I don't know the answer, but the regular patrols suggest to me that Mitre Square was not likely to be soliciting ground. Others might have better information and I'd be interested to know.

Hi Eten,

I take your point of course but I wasn’t suggesting that he was lying in wait for a prostitute in Mitre Square if that’s what you thought that I’d meant? Apologies if I was unclear. What I meant was that perhaps the killer just walked across Mitre Square (from Mitre Street or St James Passage) on his way to some likely location to find a victim and as he got near to Church Passage he saw Eddowes enter and so he stood back and waited for her to get into the square where he either propositioned her first or just put his hand over her mouth and took her into the shadows. I’d favour propositioned as it would have reduced the chances of her making a noise.

[etenguy]

I’d say that it has to be at least a possibility Tristan. Perhaps he saw her as she entered Church Passage silhouetted by the lamp so he held back and waited for her? It causes no timing issues as Eddowes could have walked from where she was seen by the three witness to the corner where she was killed in the same length of time alone as she could have done accompanied.

Hi Herlock

I think your OP is an interesting one and I have been interested in the posts that engaged with that. You choose a good example on which to hang the debate given how rarely that sighting is challenged. As you state, maybe the man with Eddowes was not JtR, who possibly met Eddowes moments later. Like other posters I think that unlikely, and Jeff Hamm's posts articulate well the reasons we have that support the possibility of the couple seen by Lawende and co as being Eddowes and JtR.

I wondered about Mitre Square and whether that was a regular haunt for prostitutes. In your paragraph I quoted here, you speculate the possibility that Eddowes was possibly spotted entering the square and was followed in by JtR. The probability of that scenario increases if Mitre Square was a location that prostitutes went to solicit for business. However, if that space were used solely for the conducting of business then it would support Eddowes entering with a punter in tow. I don't know the answer, but the regular patrols suggest to me that Mitre Square was not likely to be soliciting ground. Others might have better information and I'd be interested to know.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could the murderer have just been lurking in Mitre Square and attacks Eddowes from the shadows as she is passing through it? I am minded to be thinking of his state of mind if he had just killed Stride. May be not in the mood/a state to get involved in small talk?

Waiting with someone until the rain stops, chatting etc. If the case would suggest he was one cool cucumber if he had just had a close call with Stride.

I’d say that it has to be at least a possibility Tristan. Perhaps he saw her as she entered Church Passage silhouetted by the lamp so he held back and waited for her? It causes no timing issues as Eddowes could have walked from where she was seen by the three witness to the corner where she was killed in the same length of time alone as she could have done accompanied.