Did the the killer have a split personality?

[Michael W Richards]

I think that within the evidence of the murders there is evidence that we see can indicate some of the murders were likely the result of a unfortunate choice of client by the deceased. That evidence would suggest that the killer somehow managed to convey a harmless persona.. initially... when he first contacts his prey. When they get as private as he is comfortable with, then this cold ruthless and savage persona is released.

Since this initial persona seems safe and sane when he meets his victim, he seemingly gets women to go into the dark alone with him even during this unsolved murder spree, might this indicate that the "thing" that comes out when he gets them alone is actually a second persona. If true, would the harmless man always be aware of what the dangerous one does?

Yes...I mean sort of like Jekyll and Hyde.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Jekyll and Hyde eh? I suspect one of our members has an idea about that

The split personality to me is fanciful at best. History has shown that the worst of people are more than capable of appearing normal, charming and charismatic. Bundy as a prime example relied on it and excelled in his people skills, albeit in a very controlled and manipulative manner. But that's far from having this alter ego of which the person has no control, perhaps no recollection after the event. It's providing a get out where one isn't merited. I don't believe the killer would even need great interpersonal abilities, he preyed on desperate and vulnerable people. It can be argued that any serial killer is mentally unstable to a lesser or greater degree but it doesn't remove the culpability. Dennis Nilson being a case in point, his defence was essentially that no sane person could do what he'd done. So no, I don't think there was any split personality, just a depraved individual with a few coins to entice a desperate person.

[Aethelwulf]

I think that within the evidence of the murders there is evidence that we see can indicate some of the murders were likely the result of a unfortunate choice of client by the deceased. That evidence would suggest that the killer somehow managed to convey a harmless persona.. initially... when he first contacts his prey. When they get as private as he is comfortable with, then this cold ruthless and savage persona is released.

Since this initial persona seems safe and sane when he meets his victim, he seemingly gets women to go into the dark alone with him even during this unsolved murder spree, might this indicate that the "thing" that comes out when he gets them alone is actually a second persona. If true, would the harmless man always be aware of what the dangerous one does?

Yes...I mean sort of like Jekyll and Hyde.

I wouldn't have thought a split personality was needed, just good skills of deception.

[mpriestnall]

I agree with what Al stated. Instead I would say JTR was most definitely a psychopath.

According to this site: https://www.businessinsider.com/prof...&IR=T#1-ceo-10

this is the list of the top 10 professions with psychopaths:

1. CEO
2. Lawyer
3. Media person in TV or radio
4. Salesperson
5. Surgeon
6. Journalist
7. Police officer
8. Clergy person
9. Chef
10. Civil servant

I suspect there is a fair chance JTR came under one of the victorian equivalent of these categories.

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks for the feedback. One definition of hypomania, a bi-polar disorder can be described in this way;

"In general, Jekyll and Hyde behavior describes intense and dramatic mood swings. In some cases, these mood swings may be a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder. They could also be related to borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, or other mental health issues. Symptoms of mania or hypomania may include:

• An increase in activity, energy or agitation
• A sense of euphoria, or an elevated sense of well-being or self-confidence
• A decreased need for sleep
• Excessive talking, or speaking more quickly than usual
• Racing thoughts and difficulty concentrating
• Impulsive decision-making, such as risky spending or sexual behaviors"

Some other characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder are;

• An unreasonably high sense of self-importance or a desire for excessive admiration
• Feeling that certain privileges and special treatment are deserved
• The expectation to be recognized as superior even without achievements
• A tendency to make personal achievements or talents seem bigger than they are
• A preoccupation with success, power, brilliance, beauty, or the perfect mate
• Feelings of superiority
• Unrealistic demands or expectations of others
• A tendency to take advantage of others without guilt or remorse
• An inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
• Excessive feelings of envy toward others, or an unfounded belief that others envy you

I am not questioning whether the man was a psychopath or not, clearly he was. I am wondering if being compartmentalized allowed him to seem very normal at times. He likely had to work, and he likely needed some sleep here and there if he is out prowling all night regularly. There are times he would have to behave in somewhat normal fashion. Then there was the abnormal person, cold, cruel, lacking empathy, lacking remorse, unaffected by guilt, and with deviant desires. Surely if someone exhibited these characteristics 24/7 someone would have reported him during that murder spree. We do have some characters who exhibited deviant behaviors 24/7 being reported, but apparently they could not be linked with these crimes by investigators.

Maybe, and very ironically, Jack was in effect a real, living, Jekyll and Hyde. A wolf in sheep's clothing, as it were. Not changing by virtue of a formula, but by faulty brain wiring. I wonder if that was the case whether he was fascinated with the play itself, the Rippers run and the play ran simultaneously in London.

The symptom of Superiority seems relevant, he seemed unfazed that the whole city was on the lookout for him that Fall. He kept killing anyway.

[Losmandris]

I agree with Al here. I don't think he needed to be much of a charmer to get his poor victims to go with him. They were so desperate/ill/inebriated they probably did not need much in terms of convincing.

[Aethelwulf]

• An unreasonably high sense of self-importance or a desire for excessive admiration
• Feeling that certain privileges and special treatment are deserved
• The expectation to be recognized as superior even without achievements
• A tendency to make personal achievements or talents seem bigger than they are
• A preoccupation with success, power, brilliance, beauty, or the perfect mate
• Feelings of superiority
• Unrealistic demands or expectations of others
• A tendency to take advantage of others without guilt or remorse
• An inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
• Excessive feelings of envy toward others, or an unfounded belief that others envy you

Whether relevant or not, this is sort of what I was getting at yesterday on the profile thread. Some of these characteristics sound like someone who likes attention, perhaps something of show off. I was wondering whether the continued use of high risk locations, shocking displays of the bodies, killing Kelly on the day of the LMS (perhaps just a coincidence), even letter writing may suggest that socially he wasn't the shy, quiet man painted by the FBI profile, but something of a more gregarious show-off boaster. But very deceptive/normal when chatting to his victims?

[Abby Normal]

This thread gave me a great idea for a ripper movie. It could include heavily in the plot Jekyll and Hyde . A lot of interesting things could be done with it.

[Michael W Richards]

This thread gave me a great idea for a ripper movie. It could include heavily in the plot Jekyll and Hyde . A lot of interesting things could be done with it.

The symmetry of those 2 stories can be fascinating. I wondered at one point whether Stephenson just changed a few personality features and based this on a more contemporary villain he knew of. I have read that a friend of Robert's named Eugene Chantrelle may have fit the bill, he was supposedly known to be a psychopath by Stephenson and others and is said to have killed as many as 5 or 6 people. Stephenson..."Chantrelle bore upon his brow the most open marks of criminality; or rather, I should say so if I had not met another man who was his exact counterpart in looks, and who was yet, by all that I could learn of him, a model of kindness and good conduct". Another common name that comes up here is Deacon Brodie, if you havent read up on him you should. He was executed for his crimes 100 years before the Ripper Cases, in the Fall.. no less.

I think that the duality can be the result of some schizophrenia manifested, and Im not sure whether each part has to be aware of the other.

In Jacks case we see by the evidence in Pollys and Annies murders that he did prowl the streets looking for lone and desperate street walkers. He played a part, or maybe that was one persona of his. The combination of animal like behaviour with reasoned and effective surgical skills is also duality.

[Damaso Marte]

The hallmark of the Ripper, to me, is silence and stealth. He was killing in a dense urban area. Families sleeping in the houses above Bucks Row and Mitre Square, night watchmen in nearby warehouses, people commuting to work on nearby streets, they mostly heard nothing. The few people who may have heard the Ripper at work heard faint moans. There was no bloody trail leading back to his lair, except maybe one time that may have been on purpose.

What does that tell me? It tells me that the Ripper was taking steps to avoid being caught. Further, it tells me that he knew that society considered what he was doing to be wrong. That to me is evidence of sanity, not insanity. So yes, I think he would have presented a respectable face to his victims, if indeed he was picking them up on the street and having them lead him to quiet areas. At least respectable by the standards of his time and place.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The hallmark of the Ripper, to me, is silence and stealth.

... the Ripper was taking steps to avoid being caught.

... which is why he could not have been the assailant of Stride seen by Schwartz.

[Michael W Richards]

... which is why he could not have been the assailant of Stride seen by Schwartz.

If Israel actually saw anyone with Liz Stride, which is very questionable particularly since no-one else....the young couple, Diemshitz, Fanny...saw anyone on that street around that time. Including Israel himself.

The thing about this silent killer is this, he could not have controlled it if Polly spoke and apparently he couldnt control Annie from getting a word out. I think the silent aspect is most obvious when he was cutting, and of course the victim couldnt resist in any way. But when he finds and selects his victim he must have presented himself as benign and "safe". The general consensus is that because these women were so desperate they would still willing go into the dark with anyone even while the murder spree was dominating street talk and the press. I think thats a simplistic and erroneous assumption. They went with the killer because they didnt think he acted dangerous. Makes me wonder about a fake limp, a fake arm sling, or some improvised infirmity he might have used. The street women were arming themselves and beginning to travel in pairs at night....their caution would factor in to his ability to get them where he wanted to.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

. The general consensus is that because these women were so desperate they would still willing go into the dark with anyone even while the murder spree was dominating street talk and the press. I think thats a simplistic and erroneous assumption. They went with the killer because they didnt think he acted dangerous.

Hi Michael,

A bit of both I'd imagine. The fact that women were still out plying for trade at the height of the ripper scare demonstrates the level of necessity. That doesn't mean they'd go down a dark alley with anyone though. If a person was acting erratic and / or aggressive then I'm sure many women would give them a wide berth. But the killer didn't need to appear lame or defenceless, just non threatening. Easily achievable. I agree that desperation alone is over simplifying things.

I'd add in too, that conditions such as Bipolar Disorder and Schizophrenia might provide a vehicle for creating some character whose personality switches, in reality they don't present that way. Hypomania and Mania are awful conditions and a person affected by them has little to no ability to appear normal. They could commit murder perhaps, but I'd be amazed if they could cover it up. Or even try. Sure, at a later point the condition can ease and a firmer grasp on reality be regained, but it's a gradual process, so I'm not at all leaning towards that angle of speculation. Personality Disorder is a different kettle altogether though as there's not necessarily a psychotic phase, although it can overlap with other conditions, but that's a complex issue for here. It's probably safe to assume that if your removing organs from a stranger you've murdered, your mentally unstable. But I think psychosis is unlikely.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If Israel actually saw anyone with Liz Stride, which is very questionable particularly since no-one else....the young couple, Diemshitz, Fanny...saw anyone on that street around that time. Including Israel himself.

Who saw Fanny Mortimer?

[Fiver]

Who saw Fanny Mortimer?

Mortimer claimed to have seen a man carrying a black bag. The police found him, his name was Leon Goldstein.