The Police Perspective-September 15th, 1888

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike

I know of one suspect who could very well have committed the murder of at least Annie Chapman, he was identified by witnesses as being seen that morning bloodied and acting very strangely....a few hundred feet from the murder scene. But he was unable to commit any more. He was institutionalized.

Does he become a less valid suspect for the Chapman murder, and perhaps the Nichols murder, just because other later murders are also unsolved?

You refer to William Piggott, who was a serious suspect for the Chapman murder, and he does seem to have been cleared of suspicion solely by his being under supervision when the double event occurred. No doubt he was investigated by Police, as friends were found who could vouch for him, but he was near Hanbury Street that morning and admitted to assaulting a woman.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello again,

I was actually referring to Jacob Isenschmid Jon. To Ginger, I think you may not grasp the impact that Victoria and her sense of later years morality had upon the general public and society. The dinner tables had to wear skirts to cover the legs for god sakes. Joking, but true stuff.

The fact that these murders brought womens genitalia into the headline news must have been a large part of the shock they all experienced, because the sight of blood and guts, as you mentioned, was not hard to find around the neighborhood. The more titillating aspects of these murders seem to transfix some students as they did the public, which is why many see at least some of the Whitechapel murders, and therefore that murderer, in a sexual context. Something which I personally dont see in those first 2 murders in the Group of Five at least. I do see a gender specific component there though....that killer wasnt likely to take on a man, healthy or not. And even if he did he wouldnt know what to take. The killer of Nichols and Chapman,.... a singular killer in those 2 cases I believe, was seemingly most preoccupied with things that were particularly female.

I found it very interesting how the article I quoted distinguished between someone who cuts up animals to someone with medical training and/or knowledge. Im speculating that the way a hunter or butcher would cut up his catch would be designed to purge the unwanted portions and excise the edible portions. Thats not surgery, thats harvesting food.

When someone with medical training cuts into some flesh he or she can have many different objectives, but none are harvesting food. They are trained how to cut, where they cut based on the objectives, and how the cut sequences are made. I think thats what the surgeon saw on Annie. A detectable surgical limp, if you will.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

I was actually referring to Jacob Isenschmid Jon.

Hi Michael

I think you are getting mixed up.
Isenschmid was not identified by witnesses as being seen acting strangely near the murder scene that morning.

Piggott was placed in a line up before Mrs Fiddymont and co, and was id`d by Mrs Chappell.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

I think you are getting mixed up.
Isenschmid was not identified by witnesses as being seen acting strangely near the murder scene that morning.

Piggott was placed in a line up before Mrs Fiddymont and co, and was id`d by Mrs Chappell.

Hi Jon,

Youre right, I was referring to Jacobs "ID" incorrectly, he actually matched the description given by witnesses,.... from the East London Observer on September 22, ..." It may be only a curious coincidence but the mad pork butcher very closely answers the description of the man who was seen on the morning of the murder near the scene of the crime with bloodstains on his hands. He is about 38 years of age, about 5ft. 7in. in height, of rather stout build, and has hair on his head and face of a ginger colour."

Best regards

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike

Youre right, I was referring to Jacobs "ID" incorrectly, he actually matched the description given by witnesses,.... from the East London Observer on September 22, ..." It may be only a curious coincidence but the mad pork butcher very closely answers the description of the man who was seen on the morning of the murder near the scene of the crime with bloodstains on his hands. He is about 38 years of age, about 5ft. 7in. in height, of rather stout build, and has hair on his head and face of a ginger colour."

Yes, Abberline even wrote in an internal report that he thought the description of Fiddymont`s man and Isenschmid matched. But then again, he said so of Piggott when he boarded the train to Gravesend to collect him.

I am always struck by how the above description of Fiddymont`s man matches Mr Blotchy.

[lynn cates]

Helson

Hello Mike, Jon.

"Abberline even wrote in an internal report that he thought the description of Fiddymont`s man and Isenschmid matched."

As also inspector Helson.

Cheers.
LC

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

the murderer belongs to the middle or even to the upper classes.


If he had, then he would not have made an elementary spelling mistake later on.

[DJA]

Might have been dyslexic.

[JeffHamm]

I've always thought that, if any of Richardson, Cadosch, or Long are correct, then the early morning hour of the Chapman murder does suggest her killer likely does reside closer to Hanbury Street than the other crime scenes, for much the same reasons as mentioned in the article. Obviously such inferences should not be viewed as definitive, but certainly worthy of consideration and following up.

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I've always thought that, if any of Richardson, Cadosch, or Long are correct, then the early morning hour of the Chapman murder does suggest her killer likely does reside closer to Hanbury Street than the other crime scenes, for much the same reasons as mentioned in the article. Obviously such inferences should not be viewed as definitive, but certainly worthy of consideration and following up.

- Jeff

I used to think the same until I decided in favour of Phillips and a truly early morning hour, but the timing of the murder in Miller's Court, the extent of the mutilation, the fact that the murderer had a low risk of being disturbed, and the earwitness testimony that someone left at 5.45 a.m., suggest that the murderer did live in Spitalfields, which is what your geographical studies also suggest.

[JeffHamm]

I used to think the same until I decided in favour of Phillips and a truly early morning hour, but the timing of the murder in Miller's Court, the extent of the mutilation, the fact that the murderer had a low risk of being disturbed, and the earwitness testimony that someone left at 5.45 a.m., suggest that the murderer did live in Spitalfields, which is what your geographical studies also suggest.

Yes, depending upon one's assumption about the ToD for the Chapman murder clearly influences that interpretation (hence, I prefaced my OP on the condition that at least one of the witnesses is correct). There are some who suggest the Kelly murder may have been in the morning hours as well (either the footsteps heard, and those who think Kelly was seen the next morning, etc), which if true would also suggest a nearby residence, guiding what one might look for based upon the geographical analysis.

However, if neither of those murders were in the morning light, though, then the geographical profile becomes more ambiguous in terms of what the analysis may be picking up on. It may reflect, for example, nothing more than the common spatial habits of the victims rather than indicating a strong anchor point for JtR per se. Alternatively, it may reflect something like a pub he frequented, and so the pubs in that area might have been a good place to concentrate on (i.e. who frequents them a lot, and at closing, seems to wonder around the area on a sort of "patrol" rather than heading home, etc). But it also may reflect nothing more than the region into which he enters the area, pointing to someone who perhaps lives to the north or north-west area (within reasonable walking distance). The information that spatial analysis provides requires a lot of caution when one comes to trying to interpret what it is telling you. Unfortunately, it is often presented (in the press, in movies, etc), as always locating an offender's residence (and there are those who do research in this area who also tend to suggest that, but often they have expensive software packages to sell, which needs to be considered when evaluating their opinions).

Anyway, I think there is a strong probability that JtR was a local of some sort. And I think it worth considering that he had some sort of connection with the Commercial/Hanbury area (whether that connection is simply his area of entrance, or that he spent time in pubs there, or lived there, I don't know), although that has to be viewed with less conviction as it is also entirely possible the connection is due to the victims having commonalities with that area. The series is short in terms of how many crime scenes are being considered, and as such, the margins of error associated with it will be very high. Much like everything, it's interesting, worth taking note of, but don't bet the farm on it.

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Anyway, I think there is a strong probability that JtR was a local of some sort.


- Jeff

Maybe of a foreign sort, who was local only for the duration of the murders and then soon afterwards left the same way he had come: via the docks.

[JeffHamm]

Maybe of a foreign sort, who was local only for the duration of the murders and then soon afterwards left the same way he had come: via the docks.

Maybe. That is one theory that has been suggested and is supported by more than a few. In fact, there was a fellow at the time who had such a theory and was tracking the comings and goings of ships (he thought JtR left and returned after each murder, not just at the end of the series) and when he couldn't find any one ship which fit the bill, I think he ended up including more ships to make it work. He apparently sent a load of communications to the police, and they found him to be a nuisance in the end, but the idea that JtR may have been a sailor of some sort (cattle boats were suggested I believe) has some supporters. It's not the only possible solution, but it can't be ruled out - then again, almost nothing can so that's not really saying all that much. ha ha

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The troublesome busy-body, as Anderson called him, was a customs official by the name of Edward Larkins.

His theory was that two particular Portuguese sailors committed the murders and he was able to prove that at least one of them had been ashore when most of the murders were committed.

In the case that he needed to prove that one of them was ashore even though the records suggested otherwise, he stated that he was convinced that he was ashore because otherwise he could not have committed the murder!

I think he was on the right track, but as I have pointed out, to howls of ridicule, the identification evidence suggests that the murderer was Germanic rather than Latin.

[JeffHamm]

The troublesome busy-body, as Anderson called him, was a customs official by the name of Edward Larkins.

His theory was that two particular Portuguese sailors committed the murders and he was able to prove that at least one of them had been ashore when most of the murders were committed.

In the case that he needed to prove that one of them was ashore even though the records suggested otherwise, he stated that he was convinced that he was ashore because otherwise he could not have committed the murder!

I think he was on the right track, but as I have pointed out, to howls of ridicule, the identification evidence suggests that the murderer was Germanic rather than Latin.

Yes, that's the one, Larkins. Couldn't for the life of me remember his name.

- Jeff