The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[c.d.]

That could hardly have happened because Anderson was quite definite that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance.

But having a Jewish appearance is not a requirement for being Jewish.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That could hardly have happened because Anderson was quite definite that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance.

But having a Jewish appearance is not a requirement for being Jewish.

c.d.

Well if the suspect had a Jewish appearance I don't see what would have prevented the witness from asking the police if he was in fact Jewish. Would the police have a reason to lie in their response?

(c.d. # 897)


That could hardly have happened because Anderson was quite definite that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance.

(PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR # 899)


But having a Jewish appearance is not a requirement for being Jewish.

(c.d. # 901)


It was you who suggested that the suspect may have been of Jewish appearance.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hmmm somebody bangs on for post after post citing that the man Lawende saw was of a sailor appearance so could not have been a Jew [ fair mustache and all that ]. Now lo and behold he is saying that and I quote Anderson was quite definite that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance.

Regards Darryl

[c.d.]

But, P.I., you will agree that having a Jewish appearance is not a requirement for being Jewish will you not?

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hmmm somebody bangs on for post after post citing that the man Lawende saw was of a sailor appearance so could not have been a Jew [ fair mustache and all that ]. Now lo and behold he is saying that and I quote Anderson was quite definite that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance.

Regards Darryl

Of course.

Anderson had to imply that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance because, at the same time, he claimed that the witness would not testify against someone whom he knew to be a fellow Jew.

Had Anderson indicated, as Sagar did, that the suspect was of Jewish appearance, then he would have been at a complete loss to explain why the witness would have come forward in the first place.

In reality, the man seen by Lawende was obviously not Jewish.

We have photographs of Kosminski's brothers and sister.

They all had dark hair, none had a fair moustache, and none looked anything like a sailor.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

But, P.I., you will agree that having a Jewish appearance is not a requirement for being Jewish will you not?

c.d.

You suggested that the suspect WAS of Jewish appearance, not that he was NOT!

[Darryl Kenyon]

Of course.

Anderson had to imply that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance because, at the same time, he claimed that the witness would not testify against someone whom he knew to be a fellow Jew.

Had Anderson indicated, as Sagar did, that the suspect was of Jewish appearance, then he would have been at a complete loss to explain why the witness would have come forward in the first place.

In reality, the man seen by Lawende was obviously not Jewish.

We have photographs of Kosminski's brothers and sister.

They all had dark hair, none had a fair moustache, and none looked anything like a sailor.

Why would Anderson have to imply anything ? He could have easily said that the witness recognised a fellow Jew through his appearance.

And why was the man seen by Lawende obviously not Jewish ? If he wasn't then Lawende would not have picked kosminski out if he looked nothing like the man he saw

[Darryl Kenyon]

Look at your post again PI . You say - Anderson had to imply that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance because, at the same time, he claimed that the witness would not testify against someone whom he knew to be a fellow Jew.
But at the same time you believe no ID took place . Which is it ?

You also say - Had Anderson indicated, as Sagar did, that the suspect was of Jewish appearance, then he would have been at a complete loss to explain why the witness would have come forward in the first place.
Are you suggesting that Sagar is suggesting some Jewish suspect or not ? If you are I am assuming that you believe Sagar along with Anderson and Swanson was in on this charade as well ?

[c.d.]

You suggested that the suspect WAS of Jewish appearance, not that he was NOT!

Good Lord, man. Lighten up! Not every discussion has to rise to the level of a WWE Steel Cage Match.

What difference does it make what I suggested? I have no way of knowing (nor does anyone else) what the suspect looked like. He may have had a Jewish appearance or he might not have. The point is that the suspect could have been Jewish without appearing to be so. So the witness asking is not unreasonable.

I am not trying to trap you here. Just discussing the case. Why do you feel you have to "win" every argument?

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Look at your post again PI . You say - Anderson had to imply that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance because, at the same time, he claimed that the witness would not testify against someone whom he knew to be a fellow Jew.
But at the same time you believe no ID took place . Which is it ?

You also say - Had Anderson indicated, as Sagar did, that the suspect was of Jewish appearance, then he would have been at a complete loss to explain why the witness would have come forward in the first place.
Are you suggesting that Sagar is suggesting some Jewish suspect or not ? If you are I am assuming that you believe Sagar along with Anderson and Swanson was in on this charade as well ?

I was explaining Anderson's reasoning.

And that means that the suspect, according to Anderson, could not have been recognisably Jewish.

That has nothing to do with whether such an identification really took place.

Sagar actually stated that a suspect in Mitre Square was of Jewish appearance - the very opposite of what Anderson claimed.

I have never claimed that Sagar was in on Anderson's charade.

It was evidently a separate one.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The point is that the suspect could have been Jewish without appearing to be so. So the witness asking is not unreasonable.

Why would the witness ask the police whether a suspect is Jewish?

If he were curious to know, why would he wait until after he had identified him as a murderer before asking?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Of course.

Anderson had to imply that the suspect was not of Jewish appearance because, at the same time, he claimed that the witness would not testify against someone whom he knew to be a fellow Jew.

Had Anderson indicated, as Sagar did, that the suspect was of Jewish appearance, then he would have been at a complete loss to explain why the witness would have come forward in the first place.

In reality, the man seen by Lawende was obviously not Jewish.

We have photographs of Kosminski's brothers and sister.

They all had dark hair, none had a fair moustache, and none looked anything like a sailor.

So the man seen in Church passage could possibly not be a Jew because of the fair moustache and he dressed somewhat like a sailor . Well the moustache has already been dealt with by Herlock satisfactorily for me with the lighting issue .

As for dressing like a sailor the jacket [ as you suggested is what sailors wear ] is a non starter for me . As for the neckerchief anyone could buy one of them at any market I would suggest. Even Kate was wearing a neckerchief the night she was murdered.

Now lets look at the ID Lawende picks out Kosminski the instant he was confronted with him . A man who wasn't a sailor but a man who must have had dark hair etc [ not fair, like the man seen ] like his Jewish family according to you . So he must have looked nothing like the killer . Yet Lawende still picked him out . Had he gone blind ?
Worse Lawende was used in the ID of Sadler not long later, but failed to pick him out . And lo and behold Sadler was a sailor .

So in summary Lawende picks a man out who was a Jew, unhesitatingly . Yet someone who may look like the man seen, Sadler being a sailor he fails to . That's not to say he should pick every sailor out but the idea that Lawende's suspect was a nordic sailor and 100% not a Jew , [ because of his appearance ] and that is that . Well I don't buy it.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Why would Anderson have to imply anything ? He could have easily said that the witness recognised a fellow Jew through his appearance.

He could not have done so!

Having claimed that the witness unhesitatingly identified the suspect, he could not claim that the suspect was of Jewish appearance AND that the witness refused to testify against him because he was Jewish!

In that case, the witness would not have come forward in the first place and, moreover, would have refused to make the identification if invited to do so.


And why was the man seen by Lawende obviously not Jewish ? If he wasn't then Lawende would not have picked kosminski out if he looked nothing like the man he saw

Jews in the East End of London did not look like sailors.

Lawende did not pick out Kosminski.

There is not a shred of evidence that either Lawende or Kosminski ever visited the Seaside Home.

There seems to be evidence that the police asked Lawende to try to identify Sadler and Grainger as the murderer, which they would hardly have done if Lawende had already identified a Polish Jew.

I would point out that neither Sadler nor Grainger was Jewish and one of them was a sailor.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1;n808616]


Why would the witness ask the police whether a suspect is Jewish?

If he were curious to know, why would he wait until after he had identified him as a murderer before asking?

Except that we don't know whether or not he identified him as a murderer. We only have Anderson's word to go by and he might have embellished or have been blowing smoke to enhance his reputation. The witness might simply have said well he sort of looks like the guy I saw not knowing at that point what the police intended to do with that information. If he then got the impression that his identification would lead to the man being hanged he might have felt the need to walk back what he said. And if the witness were devoutly Jewish he might have felt that he did not want to give testimony against another Jew that would result in his being hanged when he was not 100% sure.

My guess is that the witness was not sure and that Anderson used the whole Jewish thing to cover his butt.

But again, if there are problems with Anderson's version of events it does not necessarily mean that no witness identification took place.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Now lets look at the ID Lawende picks out Kosminski the instant he was confronted with him .


According to Swanson, the suspect was Kosminski.

The witness has never been named.



A man who wasn't a sailor but a man who must have had dark hair etc [ not fair, like the man seen ] like his Jewish family according to you .


Not just according to me!

Photographs of Kosminski's siblings show people with dark hair who look nothing like sailors.


So he must have looked nothing like the killer . Yet Lawende still picked him out . Had he gone blind ?


Lawende would not have picked out a dark-haired East End Jew as someone he had described as a man having the appearance of a sailor and a fair moustache.


Worse Lawende was used in the ID of Sadler not long later, but failed to pick him out . And lo and behold Sadler was a sailor .

You still have not explained why the police would have asked Lawende to identify a gentile sailor if he had already identified a Polish Jew.