The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Good morning PI one



By the way, what is your theory?

Paddy

In my opinion, the only witness who could have seen the murderer was Joseph Lawende.

It is also my opinion that the man he described was the murderer, because of the proximity of that sighting to the time that the body was discovered.

Lawende described the man as having a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

His description of the man's clothing is consistent with his having been a sailor, in particular the loose jacket.

The area abounded with foreign sailors.

My theory is that the murderer was a Nordic sailor.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Try Joseph Hyam Levy.

Anderson was definite that the witness did not recognise the suspect as being Jewish and that it was only on learning that the person he had identified was Jewish that he refused to testify against him.

Can you please explain why Levy would have needed to be reminded that his relative, whom he is alleged to have recognised in Duke Street, was Jewish?

[Abby Normal]

In my opinion, the only witness who could have seen the murderer was Joseph Lawende.

It is also my opinion that the man he described was the murderer, because of the proximity of that sighting to the time that the body was discovered.

Lawende described the man as having a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor.

His description of the man's clothing is consistent with his having been a sailor, in particular the loose jacket.

The area abounded with foreign sailors.

My theory is that the murderer was a Nordic sailor.

why Nordic? I get the sailor part, but why specifically Nordic?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

why Nordic? I get the sailor part, but why specifically Nordic?

The fair moustache suggests someone from a Nordic country.

I suppose northern Italy is a possibility, but northern Europe is what I had in mind.

[Abby Normal]

The fair moustache suggests someone from a Nordic country.

I suppose northern Italy is a possibility, but northern Europe is what I had in mind.

a fair moustache suggests anyone of European descent. and the various witnesses never describe hearing any suspect talk with an accent and his general description is of being either of avg or below avg height, and nordic people tend to be taller.

tje ripper could have been nordic, but i think its a bit of a stretch to infer that from one witnesses description of a fair mustache.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

a fair moustache suggests anyone of European descent. and the various witnesses never describe hearing any suspect talk with an accent and his general description is of being either of avg or below avg height, and nordic people tend to be taller.

tje ripper could have been nordic, but i think its a bit of a stretch to infer that from one witnesses description of a fair mustache.

I agree that a foreign accent would have been helpful.

What I had in mind was northern European.

I suppose that could include the British Isles, so he could have been British.

My hunch is that he was from a Germanic country.

As I pointed out before, I originally used the term Nordic to make the point that he was a Nordic sailor and not a Polish Jewish barber.

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to say that he could have been anyone of European descent.

It is most unlikely that he was from Spain, Portugal, southern Italy, Serbia, Bulgaria, or Greece.

[jerryd]

The fair moustache suggests someone from a Nordic country.

I suppose northern Italy is a possibility, but northern Europe is what I had in mind.

Could be PI. Could also be the supposed "Dodger" a.k.a the rippers accomplice, John Arnold. Here is his description:

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Could be PI. Could also be the supposed "Dodger" a.k.a the rippers accomplice, John Arnold. Here is his description:

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

Yes.

I can see that description was published by The Leeds Mercury on Thursday, September 12, 1889.

i have also read that Swanson interviewed him, presumably without result?

[jerryd]

Yes.

I can see that description was published by The Leeds Mercury on Thursday, September 12, 1889.

i have also read that Swanson interviewed him, presumably without result?

Swanson concluded he wasn't involved in the case at hand in Sept. of 1889, which was the Pinchin Torso case. That leaves us with John Arnold making a lucky prediction at finding the body in Back-church Lane. To me, it's hard to swallow that conclusion.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Swanson concluded he wasn't involved in the case at hand in Sept. of 1889, which was the Pinchin Torso case. That leaves us with John Arnold making a lucky prediction at finding the body in Back-church Lane. To me, it's hard to swallow that conclusion.

Sorry, but although I have heard of that murder, and read something about it, I am not familiar with the details.

I will do some more reading.

Are you saying that you think there is some connection between that murder and the Whitechapel Murders?

[jerryd]

Are you saying that you think there is some connection between that murder and the Whitechapel Murders?

I'd rather not sidetrack this thread. There are many threads on both forums regarding that case. Many I have been involved on. I can point you to those if you like? The short answer is, I think there is a possibility, yes.

[jerryd]

FYI Regarding Joseph Lawende and Joseph Hyam Levy.

In 1890, Joseph Lawende and Detective Constable Daniel Halse were neighbors living on Norfolk-road, Dalston. Lawende at #45 and Halse at #29.
In 1899, Joseph Hyam Levy and Joseph Lavender (Lawende) lived on Mildmay Road. Lawende at #124 and Levy at #140.

If coincidences mean anything.

[jerryd]

And one other coincidence.

Harry Harris, the 3rd of the Lawende crew, lived at 34, Newcastle Street. This address, if one peered out his back door into Castle Alley, would be right at the murder site of Alice McKenzie.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry, but although I have heard of that murder, and read something about it, I am not familiar with the details.

I will do some more reading.

Are you saying that you think there is some connection between that murder and the Whitechapel Murders?

at the very least its a torso case in ripper territory and had a vertical gash to the midsection like the ripper victims. both jerry and I are some of the few that think there is a possibility that the torso and ripper cases are linked. And just in case you didnt know, hes also one of the best researchers here and has made some fascinating discoveries and connections amongst and between the two series.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi Herlock.

Sorry for barging into this dogfight, but I suspect that if the late Martin Fido was here, he would point out that Anderson does not name 'Kosminski' in his book, in Blackwood's, or anywhere else.

It was Fido's belief that after the passing of many years, Swanson had become confused, and two different suspects had blended into one.

You don't have to accept this theory, but perhaps it shouldn't be said or implied that Anderson named Kosminski.

He might also point out that Anderson never mentions a seaside home, let alone the Seaside Home, and gives no hint that the identification took place at such a location.

I did myself some time ago suggest that Swanson's Kosminski is a composite figure based on Druitt and Kosminski, which is why Kosminski dies at the wrong time.

The starting point of this myth is the idea that the murderer was obviously insane and the idea that he must have died soon after the murder of Kelly, both of which ideas are mentioned by Macnaghten.

Anderson and Swanson, by an amazing coincidence, came up with just such a person, except that he died some 30 years later.