The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[Elamarna]

Dont feel sorry for me, and you ignore what I have said in that previous post, that the last line in the marginalia could have been made any time after 1910 and before Oct 1987.

maybe you should show the memo you refer to

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Not so, Sandell clearly says it is present prior to 15th April 1981.
That you wish to ignore the facts and bury your head in the sand is so sad.

[Sunny Delight]

Not so, Sandell clearly says it is present prior to 15th April 1981.
That you wish to ignore the facts and bury your head in the sand is so sad.

I don't think there can be much doubt on the Marginalia just as I don't think there is much doubt that the killer dropped part of Catherine Eddowes apron in a doorway in Goulston Street. I think it can be good to look at the case and all we know or think we know critically and sometimes new theories emerge which are worthy of discussion and debate. I don't see how anyone could doubt the Marginalia in any meaningful way. Kosminski was obviously on the Police radar as McNaghten had included him in a list of suspects in his memo. His known movements in regards being admitted to workhouses and asylums tallies well enough. Dates are a little out but not much. The clincer for me though is that Swanson mentions that he was discharged into the care of his brother and we know that when he initially was discharged from the Workhouse it was in the care of his brother in law. Initially taken to the workhouse in July 1890 and released into his brothers care before being admitted to an the workhouse again in February 1891 as Swanson termed it shortly after being released to his brothers care.

I also think that the draft memo of McNaghten's suggested he was aware of the ID or of an ID being carried out at least. He stated that Kosminski strongly resembled the man seen by a City PC near Mitre Square. Now whatever about the City PC etc the most important point is that Kosminski strongly resembled someone seen close to a murder scene. There had to have been an ID carried out that he was aware of. When you add Swanson's description of Kosminski's circumstances and McNaghten's draft version- it becomes blindingly obvious that Donald Swanson wrote Kosminski was the suspect.

[rjpalmer]

With Kosminski safely locked away in a lunatic asylum, Swanson wouldn't have needed to think about him again. If he was under the mistaken impression that Kosminski had died, possibly because of something someone had told him, he definitely wouldn't have needed to think about him again!

Littlechild thought that Tumblety might be Jack the Ripper yet also believed he committed suicide and was never heard of again after leaving for Boulogne, blissfully unaware that this "most dangerous man" lived another fifteen years in the US.

Hardly the same thing, Herlock. Littlechild was writing in 1913. Fully a quarter of a century after the fact. He also voices some hesitancy about the suicide, saying 'it was believed,' and 'but certain it is....' It seems more like a case of Sim's reference to 'the drowned doctor' momentarily confusing Littlechild and tickling his memory.

By contrast, you are suggesting that Swanson's unnamed dead man--dead at least by 1895--was Aaron Kosminski; yet Kosminski was only 23 in 1888, 26 in 1891, and 30 in 1895. Just because he was sent to the asylum, there would be no reason to assume that he died there or couldn't have been eventually released. Thus, to make this hypothesis work, you theorize that Swanson was given bad information.

Maybe so, but I wouldn't care to place too much faith in a theory that, by your own account, is based on someone who is repeating bad information. Only the previous year (1894) Macnaghten believes that Kosminski is still alive.

These arguments tend to go on indefinitely, and with much theorizing, but the historical record is far from clear about what really happened.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hardly the same thing, Herlock. Littlechild was writing in 1913. Fully a quarter of a century after the fact. He also voices some hesitancy about the suicide, saying 'it was believed,' and 'but certain it is....' It seems more like a case of Sim's reference to 'the drowned doctor' momentarily confusing Littlechild and tickling his memory.

By contrast, you are suggesting that Swanson's unnamed dead man--dead at least by 1895--was Aaron Kosminski; yet Kosminski was only 23 in 1888, 26 in 1891, and 30 in 1895. Just because he was sent to the asylum, there would be no reason to assume that he died there or couldn't have been eventually released. Thus, to make this hypothesis work, you theorize that Swanson was given bad information.

Maybe so, but I wouldn't care to place too much faith in a theory that, by your own account, is based on someone who is repeating bad information. Only the previous year (1894) Macnaghten believes that Kosminski is still alive.

These arguments tend to go on indefinitely, and with much theorizing, but the historical record is far from clear about what really happened.

I'm sorry, Roger, but when you say to me "you are suggesting that Swanson's unnamed dead man--dead at least by 1895--was Aaron Kosminski" you're very much missing the point.

I only mentioned that man being Kosminski as a possibility in response to Trevor saying that Swanson's 1895 "quote" was inconsistent with what he later wrote in the marginalia.

I'm certain that he hadn't appreciated that Swanson was saying in the marginalia that Kosminski had died shortly after February 1891.

In other words, what I'm saying is that the marginalia is consistent with the Swanson 1895 "quote" (which wasn't a quote) - but no more than that.

As you are well aware, in 1888 people died young of disease and all kinds of stuff. I've never said that Swanson "assumed" that Kosminski had died. I think it's likely he was told that or thought he had been told that.

But it doesn't matter. You've agreed that we don't know for certain that the 1895 suspect was Druitt. Therefore it could have been anyone who Swanson believed to be dead at the time. From the marginalia it is clear that Swanson believed that Kosminski died shortly after his transfer to Colney Hatch which was in Feb 1891.

I'm so used to discussing with Trevor in this thread that I've almost lost hope of receiving a fair and balanced response to my posts but will you at least agree with me that the supposed Swanson quote of 1895 is not inconsistent with what Swanson wrote in his marginalia?

[Trevor Marriott]

Not so, Sandell clearly says it is present prior to 15th April 1981.
That you wish to ignore the facts and bury your head in the sand is so sad.

My understanding is that there were two documents relating to Charles Sandell and the NOW article

In onedocument, which Sandell sent to his news editor prior to him formulating his intended article, he does include a line which reads, "The Yard Detective names the man as Kosminksi, a Police Jew” In the absence in his final article of the all-important "Kosminski was the suspect," Sandell can only have been told that Donald Swanson said, "he was a Polish Jewish immigrant called Kosminski," by James Swanson for there is nothing else in Charles Sandell's transcription of the marginalia to substantiate such a claim. and that info could have been obtained from Robin Odell's finding of the MM.

So it is quite feasible to suggest that the line Kosminki was the suspect was added at a later time

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[Scott Nelson]

As far as the suspect being dead before May 1895 goes, remember the PMG article was interviewing Henry Moore, who provided Swanson's belief. Just another layer of complexity to the Ripper's death date story.

[rjpalmer]

As far as the suspect being dead before May 1895 goes, remember the PMG article was interviewing Henry Moore, who provided Swanson's belief. Just another layer of complexity to the Ripper's death date story.

Hi Scott.

How seriously one should take it is a matter of debate or judgment, but there were claims that Scotland Yard thought "Jack the Ripper" was dead four months before Aaron Kosminski was even sent to the workhouse.

Howse that for a layer of complexity?

[Scott Nelson]

Thank you RJ. I see on another thread it is thought this could refer to Bury. And what about Druitt?

Or even Aaron Davis Cohen?

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Scott.

How seriously one should take it is a matter of debate or judgment, but there were claims that Scotland Yard thought "Jack the Ripper" was dead four months before Aaron Kosminski was even sent to the workhouse.

Howse that for a layer of complexity?

That must refer to Druitt and McNaghten favouring him as suspect.

[Darryl Kenyon]

With Swanson believing Kosminski was dead in 1895. Is it possible that because he was not in Colney Hatch at that date and Swanson mentions Colney hatch but not Leavesden, were Kosminski was transferred to in 1894, that there was some form of miscommunication? And because Kosminski was no longer in Colney Hatch in 1895, where I am assuming Swanson would expect Kosminski to spend the rest of his days, he presumed he was dead ?

Perhaps because the City police were tasked with watching Kosminski, it fell on them to keep tabs on him and someone may have been lapse in communicating the transfer to Leavesden to the yard ?

This doesn't explain why Swanson's opinion in the marginalia was that Kosminski died shortly after his incarceration, but he was writing 20 odd years later and he may have misremembered three years for three months say if he assumed he did die in 1894/95.

Just a few thoughts Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Darryl
Perhaps because the City police were tasked with watching Kosminski, it fell on them to keep tabs on him and someone may have been lapse in communicating the transfer to Leavesden to the yard ? [/QUOTE]

But that doesn't explain why Major Smith who would have had to sanction such an operation makes no mention of any such surveillance operation or this contentious ID parade, nor do any of the officers who were involved in the investigation make any mention of it having taken place as described in the marginalia

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[Darryl Kenyon]

But that doesn't explain why Major Smith who would have had to sanction such an operation makes no mention of any such surveillance operation or this contentious ID parade, nor do any of the officers who were involved in the investigation make any mention of it having taken place as described in the marginalia

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He doesn't mention Robert Sagar's suspect either, who may well have been Kosminski.

Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

He doesn't mention Robert Sagar's suspect either, who may well have been Kosminski.

Regards Darryl

Clearly, Sagar`s suspect was nothing more than a person of interest and may not have even been Kosminski! and it still doesn't explain the fact that no one directly involved in the case knew of the ID parade or the important ID of the killer as described in the marginalia, which as I keep saying is unsafe to rely on.

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[Darryl Kenyon]

Clearly, Sagar`s suspect was nothing more than a person of interest and may not have even been Kosminski! and it still doesn't explain the fact that no one directly involved in the case knew of the ID parade or the important ID of the killer as described in the marginalia, which as I keep saying is unsafe to rely on.

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Trevor I have mentioned this before but - Mac in the draft version to the MM - This man [ Kosminski ], strongly resembled the individual seen by the city PC near Mitre Square.
It doesn't matter if City PC should read City witness or if a PC did see Kosminski. The crux is someone must have looked at Kosminski to know he looked like the individual he saw.
So we have Swanson, Anderson and McNaughton all alluding to some form of ID, with possibly Sagar as well .

Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor I have mentioned this before but - Mac in the draft version to the MM - This man [ Kosminski ], strongly resembled the individual seen by the city PC near Mitre Square.
It doesn't matter if City PC should read City witness or if a PC did see Kosminski. The crux is someone must have looked at Kosminski to know he looked like the individual he saw.
So we have Swanson, Anderson and McNaughton all alluding to some form of ID, with possibly Sagar as well .

Regards Darryl

But there is no evidence to support what MM wrote, and no evidence to support what Swanson or Anderson wrote.

The only reliable part of the MM is in the Aberconway version where he exonerates Kosminski, and he wouldn't have written that if Kosminski had been identified in the way described in the marginalia.

MM was Swanson`s immediate superior so if this mythical ID parade did happen as described in the marginalia then MM would have known as he would have had to sanction it and be aware of the result.

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