A Victorian Apron Full of Questions...

[Robert St Devil]

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[DJA]

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[Robert St Devil]

Hi Books!
Just a few points from me re your questions/comments:

1) No-I dont think he was automatically carrying chalk. I think he was agitated that he was seen/interrupted by a bunch of jews that night and decided on a little pay back and obsfucation. I think he headed back to his bolt hole after eddowes, cleaned up a bit and a grabbed some chalk then went back out, dropped the apron and wrote the GSG. It would explain why PC Long didnt see it the first time around because it wasnt there yet.

hi abby. been awhile, currently in cali, doing my best to avoid the Stockton serial killer, seems like he’s causing his own autumn of terror round these parts.

Haven’t read through this thread yet, so maybe it’s been mentioned before. However, your post inspired a random thought.

taking “if’s” into consideration:

at the eddowes inquest, inspector collard spoke of some of catherine’s items being found alongside her body (mustard tin, buttons). my questioning thought being, does the chalk belong to catherine?

considering she is found with buttons, pins, needles, thimble… would chalk have been that random of a personal posession if, say, she had tendencies of sewing or tailoring?

[BooksbyBJThompson]

I should have said resurrected in the UK around the 1980's I'm sure the USA if not other countries were employing the bandana system a decade or so earlier.
I also wondered if the offer of a handkerchief by a punter was an indicator of sexual interest to be either accepted (as in Kelly) or declined so not to offend women who were not in the sex trade. And/or the woman soliciting could discuss her lost kerchief without explicit language and if the punter was interested would furnish one. This would offer a non verbal transaction without fear of being seen as overt solicitation by an under cover policeman or offending a guy just on his way to work. Also the wearing of a kerchief (depending on colour etc) could have been an indicator of availability and/or services on offer. Just thinking out loud what are your thoughts on the matter?

Helen x

Annie Chapman had a neckerchief on at the time of her death. You maybe onto something here. I always thought Kelly's mention of a lost hankerchief was weird. Theres more going on, I think, do visual clues, and even a posing signature from Jack, thats been previously discussed/examined.

[Parisi North Humber]

I should have said resurrected in the UK around the 1980's I'm sure the USA if not other countries were employing the bandana system a decade or so earlier.
I also wondered if the offer of a handkerchief by a punter was an indicator of sexual interest to be either accepted (as in Kelly) or declined so not to offend women who were not in the sex trade. And/or the woman soliciting could discuss her lost kerchief without explicit language and if the punter was interested would furnish one. This would offer a non verbal transaction without fear of being seen as overt solicitation by an under cover policeman or offending a guy just on his way to work. Also the wearing of a kerchief (depending on colour etc) could have been an indicator of availability and/or services on offer. Just thinking out loud what are your thoughts on the matter?

Helen x

[Parisi North Humber]

#14 I have mentioned before but I don't think it was picked up on (or of little interest lol). There was a language of handkerchiefs not very disimilar to that of fans and flowers. It was resurrected in the 1980's and 1990's as sexual indicators but this time in the homosexual community and was modernised by the use of bandanas rather than hanker/neckerchief.

Helen x

[MrBarnett]

Re Emma Smith, there was an almost identical attack on a young Hungarian (I think) woman in Backchurch Lane in 1885. A group of men held her down and assaulted her with a walking stick.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Hi Books!
Just a few points from me re your questions/comments:

1) No-I dont think he was automatically carrying chalk. I think he was agitated that he was seen/interrupted by a bunch of jews that night and decided on a little pay back and obsfucation. I think he headed back to his bolt hole after eddowes, cleaned up a bit and a grabbed some chalk then went back out, dropped the apron and wrote the GSG. It would explain why PC Long didnt see it the first time around because it wasnt there yet.

Good points. My gut has always felt that Jack didn't write that graffito, and yet I can't pinpoint exactly why I feel that way. I guess my feeling is this: say no cop sees it at all, or a resident comes down at daybreak and rubs it off.

My question is: how was Jack so sure a Bobby would eventually see it before a citizen?

If it was because he knew they were running right on his trail, there would have been no time to write those words, and even if he manages to evade capture, why go back out along that same escape route, knowing the cops are now swarming?

6) why would she? No-her attack has all the hallmarks of a gang attack, theres no evidence it was a single person, and she maintains it was a group even on her death bed.

A gang will rape her with an object so bad her insides are ruptured. Why? Why not just a beating and normal gang bang, if that was a typical gang's goal?

I realize she maintained that story til death, but maybe protecting someone she knew was more important?

I know this is a weird idea. I just have never seen that level of sexual abuse from a gang perspective before.

8) hmmm. dont think so. The rippers signature was post mortem mutilation, a vertical gash to the midsection and removal of body parts.
Right.

9) its never completely dark-theres always at least an ambient light source, especially in the city. he did his killing low light. and IMHO him carrying a light source would have been too cumbersome, risky and attention drawing.
Right.

13) Anyone who finds a body is de facto a suspect until they are cleared (today anyways). Someone who is seen near a freshly killed body before raising any kind of alarm doubly so, or should be. Lech also had a discrepency with a cop over what was said, his work route brings him near the victims locations and at the very least he is absolutely in the frame to be Pollys killer. hes as good (or least weak as I like to say) a suspect as any other, and better than most.

Question: post Polly-does anyone know what route to work Cross took afterwards? Did he continue to take Buck's Row?

14) the red hanky is interesting. Lawende and company describe a man wearing a red hanky with eddowes, the last victim before Kelly. Hutch includes it in his description of the interaction between Aman and Kelly. seems to make a pretty big point about it. IMHO hutch is trying to convince the police hes seen the ripper, a little too hard. I think hutchs Aman story is BS.

Gotcha.

15) I think he did stop after Kelly, for a while. then continued with jackson and mckenzie. Pinchin was his last victim. And yes I think the ripper and torsoman were probably the same man.

What level of injuries did Jackson & McKensie have compared to Kelly?

Ripping to cutting off limbs - a pretty big jump. What makes you think those kills are connected?

[Abby Normal]

I started my Ripper journey by binge listening to the Rippercast, virtually walking the streets - foot by foot - on Google Maps, and carefully dissecting the book, The London of Jack the Ripper: Then and Now by Philip Hutchinson and Robert Clack. With this grand triad of info, I have some questions. Maybe some of you learned folks can supply me with answers or better research ways of examining these issues and coming to estimated conclusions. Here goes. Answer all. Answer some. Answer none. Try and not rip the Messenger, i.e. me. ;-)

1) Goulston Street Graffito - why is Jack automatically carrying chalk? (Am I to assume he's created graffiti before? Why? Is he carrying chalk used on price signs because he was a Petticoat Lane merchant? There's not a lot to convince me here - time, purpose, risk vs reward - that the "Juwes" graffito was Jack's.)

2) Is there somewhere a documented/ complete list of Mary Kelly's room? Were Joe Barnett's clay pipe and ginger beer bottles documented?

3) Would Jack know where/when he would have crossed from Met police jurisdiction into City police, in Miter Square?

4) Is the bloody rag from Goulston Street still in existence? And if so, has a DNA sequence ever been found? If not, do we know why not?

5) Does anyone else see the uncanny resemblance to Annie Chapman and Martha Tabram?

6) NC5 - Emma Smith - could she have been lying about a gang to cover up the ID of a single attacker?

7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

8) Could this be the serial killer's signature? (Left hand on chest/torso? Head facing left? Chapman, Eddowes, Stride, Kelly) Any ideas as to its meaning?

9) Why are we assuming that Jack did his ripping in the dark? Light source, anyone?

10) Bucks Row/Durward - although the street is fairly straight, it's a long way from the end of Bucks at Brady St to Nichols' body. I checked. A Bobby could have walked by that end and saw nothing in that dark. How could PC Neil have heard PC Thain passing by on Brady St? Was it quieter back then that you could hear footsteps? And how would Neil know it's a Bobby?

11) if Stride was seen at 34 Settles, Bricklayer's Arms, why would she buy grapes at 44 Berner (Henriques)Street when located at 40? That's backtracking. Chalk up to embellishing/mistaken witness?

12) As per Rippercast, Oh Dear Boss: The Ripper Had All The Luck Jun 24 2018 - I disagree. there was no going home to clean up. PC Long didn't see the rag. Jack dropped it, then went home, my guess Middlesex or thereabouts if you geoprofile a location and/or the street name, symbolic meaning for Jack?. He did not rush/flee at/from any scene. Sociopaths see themselves as righteous; therefore, destined to succeed in their minds, ergo, no need to hurry. Your thoughts?

13) Steve Blomer on July 21, 2019, podcast Inside Buck's Row - is 100% right. PC Mizen doesn't do anything wrong. Car men don't say Polly was attacked. No protocol breach needed as per an emergency. There is no conspiracy here. Charles Cross (Lechmere) is not the perp. This is a non suspect. Your thoughts?

14) Red handkerchief - Eddowes - around man's neck at Church passage, is it Mary who loses hers and is given a red one by a man? Is this a repeating object? What can it say about the perp?

15) What if Jack did voluntarily stop after Kelly? What if he was carrying out an art form only he could appreciate and Kelly was his magnum opus? Similar M.O. to the Black Dahlia killer?

16) Clay pipe repeat - Barnett, stranger at Stride scene - how do we know these are clay pipes?

17) Ginger beer bottle letter reference - is this a slip up on Jack's part? or a red herring he's feeding us?

Hi Books!
Just a few points from me re your questions/comments:

1) No-I dont think he was automatically carrying chalk. I think he was agitated that he was seen/interrupted by a bunch of jews that night and decided on a little pay back and obsfucation. I think he headed back to his bolt hole after eddowes, cleaned up a bit and a grabbed some chalk then went back out, dropped the apron and wrote the GSG. It would explain why PC Long didnt see it the first time around because it wasnt there yet.

6) why would she? No-her attack has all the hallmarks of a gang attack, theres no evidence it was a single person, and she maintains it was a group even on her death bed.

8) hmmm. dont think so. The rippers signature was post mortem mutilation, a vertical gash to the midsection and removal of body parts.

9) its never completely dark-theres always at least an ambient light source, especially in the city. he did his killing low light. and IMHO him carrying a light source would have been too cumbersome, risky and attention drawing.

13) Anyone who finds a body is de facto a suspect until they are cleared (today anyways). Someone who is seen near a freshly killed body before raising any kind of alarm doubly so, or should be. Lech also had a discrepency with a cop over what was said, his work route brings him near the victims locations and at the very least he is absolutely in the frame to be Pollys killer. hes as good (or least weak as I like to say) a suspect as any other, and better than most.

14) the red hanky is interesting. Lawende and company describe a man wearing a red hanky with eddowes, the last victim before Kelly. Hutch includes it in his description of the interaction between Aman and Kelly. seems to make a pretty big point about it. IMHO hutch is trying to convince the police hes seen the ripper, a little too hard. I think hutchs Aman story is BS.

15) I think he did stop after Kelly, for a while. then continued with jackson and mckenzie. Pinchin was his last victim. And yes I think the ripper and torsoman were probably the same man.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

1} GSG.Handwriting and his height.

Could you further explain. I'm not sure I understand your response, vis a vis if Jack wrote the graffito.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

You're welcome. I see that I missed #7: 7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

I disagree, not sure why you mean she could not feel cold? besides, she wasn't cold: "I felt her arm, which was quite warm, from the joints upwards." "Her hands and wrists were cold, but the body and lower extremities were warm"

Thanks for clarifying. I thought I had read or listened to another statement where she was said to be cold, not merely on her hands. I might have been mistaken.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Interesting questions.

My answer to 3. would be: Only if he was very familiar with the location in question. The closest City/Met boundary to Mitre Square was near Heydon Square, I believe. A suspect with a connection to that location might be worth looking at.

Were there residential block around Heydon, do you know?

[BooksbyBJThompson]

If any of those questions could be answered,which one would be an element of the crime that would be crucial to a prosecution?

To my mind, a signature, that could tie all the kills together, and geoprofiling, if we could narrow it down to a street or two and check census records, that would place the defendent at or near the scenes of crimes, barring a concrete alibi.

[MrBarnett]

Interesting questions.

My answer to 3. would be: Only if he was very familiar with the location in question. The closest City/Met boundary to Mitre Square was near Heydon Square, I believe. A suspect with a connection to that location might be worth looking at.

[Kattrup]

Thank you, Kattrup, for all that great insight!

You're welcome. I see that I missed #7: 7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

I disagree, not sure why you mean she could not feel cold? besides, she wasn't cold: "I felt her arm, which was quite warm, from the joints upwards." "Her hands and wrists were cold, but the body and lower extremities were warm"