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A Victorian Apron Full of Questions...

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by BooksbyBJThompson View Post
    No. I know their routes. I was asking after the Nichols murder, the days after, did anyone know if Cross continued to take that route to work.
    Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Unless Lechmere or a member of his immediate family kept a diary and happened to write it down, I doubt we will ever know.

    Of course if a diary did surface, the people trying to fit Lechmere up for the crime would say changing his route meant he had a guilty conscience and it proves he was guilty, while keeping his route meant he was reliving the murder in his imagination every time that he passed the spot and it proves he was guilty.



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  • BooksbyBJThompson
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    I was merely answering a posters original question until polly parrot decided to get involved

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • BooksbyBJThompson
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi books
    is cutting off breasts, ears and noses, cutting out internal organs and cutting throats so deep as to almost decapitate so different from cutting off limbs? not to me it isnt.

    then you have the other connections of similar sig, victimology, time and place, unsolved and both end at the same time. then you have the very specific stomach flaps cut away in jackson, kelly and chapman.
    difference can be ascribed to not having his bolt hole available and or escaltion.

    added to that the rarity of two post mortem body parts removers in same town and time. the thought of two such cretins operating at the same time and place is too much a coincidence for me.

    now all that being said, i realize of course the differences could mean it wasnt the same man, i just lean heavily, say 75%, toward they were.
    There is a difference in the activity though...
    Torso cut elsewhere.
    Blood trained elsewhere.
    Limbs dumped elsewhere.
    Torso carried to site.

    That's a ton if risk and effort.
    Jack wasn't interested in either.

    I totally get your reasoning -- two murderers in same locale -- but I think all the press Jack received made other weirdos act over mere fantasizing. And a murderer could kill and happily assume Jack would get the cop grief. It was a win-win time for killer types.

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  • BooksbyBJThompson
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi al
    never heard of enon. i was referring to the anonymous (anon) church street sighting of the ripper, acting suspicious..sitting on some steps, wiping his hands and trying to hide his face. this was in between in time and place between the stride and eddowes murders.
    Sugdens all over it in his book.
    That sighting was never clear though. Witness never could discern what that man was actually doing. Witness thought wiping his hands, but given the press, most everyone seeing anyone sitting down in the wee hours and moving their hands might think the same thing. The witness never said they saw a knife. And given the poor lighting, there's no way to know if this stranger had anything to do with Eddowes' murder. I think this sighting leans closer to another "clue" red herring.

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  • BooksbyBJThompson
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    Based on the testimonies of Robert Paul and Charles Cross, they traveled together for a significant way. Heading west on Buck's Row, it ended in a T intersection, with Montague. Turning right, they went a block north on Montague, where they encountered PC Mizen near the corner of Montague and Hanbury Street.

    From there, Cross and Paul walked west in Hanbury to Corbett's Court, a distance of several blocks. Paul worked as a carman for some firm there, though we do not know who. To the immediate west was Spitalfield's Market.

    Charles Cross would have continued west an slightly south from there towards the Broad Street Station, though we do not know by what route.

    The total distance that Paul and Cross traveled together appears to be roughly 15 blocks.
    No. I know their routes. I was asking after the Nichols murder, the days after, did anyone know if Cross continued to take that route to work.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
    I've always found the Church Lane sighting interesting. If it's not Strides killer, it's a fool way to carry on in that climate, and likewise, it demonstrates that people were looking out and reporting things, highlighting the atmosphere the killer operated in. It's much like the "I am not the murderer" statement overhead that same night. Odd goings on in East London.
    It's a fool way to carry on in that climate period - whether Sailor Hat was Stride's killer or just some random guy who happened to be in the area.

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  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    Clearly the times given are estimates, something everyone (except Fisherman) seems to understand.

    The Church Lane man was wearing "a short jacket and a sailor's hat". That would be a sennet hat, as per the 20 March 1888 edition of the Navy List.

    Sennet hats looked like this.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	f8300.jpg
Views:	387
Size:	103.8 KB
ID:	796989


    According to Swanson's notes, Lawende saw a man wearing a "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", which is different color, material, and style from a "sailor hat".
    Rather like the black wideawake the man Sarah Lewis saw opposite Miller's Court was wearing.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    I also struggle to accept the GSG. It could be argued that all it needed was an oblique reference to Jews and a bloody rag to cause a fracas, but I try to see it from the profile of the killer. Many suppose that the guy seen manhandling Stride outside the club was the ripper. The same brute yelling racial epithets in the street is now writing cryptic messages in cursive handwriting? Had the words "LIPSKI" been written or something to that effect, I could get on board with it. As such, I don't know what was going through the killer's mind.
    If it was a plan to implicate the Jews, it was a pretty poor one. As you note, the GSG is an oblique reference, not a clear statement. There was no way of knowing that the apron piece would have been discovered by the police instead of just trodden under foot or pitched into a rubbish bin. There was no way of knowing that police would see the GSG before it was deliberately or accidentally erased.

    If the Ripper really wanted Jews to be blamed, a far smarter method would have been to chalk a clear message at one of the murder sites.

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  • Fiver
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    witnesses are notoriously off on times, the important clue is that church lane man was also wearing a peaked cap, same as lawendes man and every other suspect seen by witnesses that night. it was more than likely the same man and the ripper.
    Clearly the times given are estimates, something everyone (except Fisherman) seems to understand.

    The Church Lane man was wearing "a short jacket and a sailor's hat". That would be a sennet hat, as per the 20 March 1888 edition of the Navy List.

    Sennet hats looked like this.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	f8300.jpg
Views:	387
Size:	103.8 KB
ID:	796989


    According to Swanson's notes, Lawende saw a man wearing a "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", which is different color, material, and style from a "sailor hat".

    Leave a comment:


  • Harry D
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi Harry
    one only has to see burys thuggish brutish behavior and then look at his beautifully contructed and handwritten confession letter to know how an individual can, given the circs, act/appear as in polar opposites.
    Yes, that is true, however, there's a different temperament between someone pumping with adrenaline after a kill, and a beaten man resigned to his fate in a jail cell.

    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    and yes i think the ripper had a thing about jews, but as they were all up in his face the night of the double event, he used the opportunity of having the bloody apron to throw some shade and blame their way. not neccesarily to start a race riot, but put police on their trail and not his. he must have realized these jews were going to be talking to police about his description. and of course, with leather apron and the police leading theory about a jewish killer was probably fresh in his mind.
    And that's one of the problems. The writer was either blaming jews for an unknown offence or trying to set them up. We cannot say what he meant.

    I wonder if the graffito was unfinished? We talk about the killer being interrupted with Nichols & Stride... but what if he'd also been disturbed in Goulston Street? That could explain why the writing was small enough to fit on two or three bricks? He had planned to write more below it.

    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    and re mary kelly, who knows why serial killers do or do not do, should have could have etc. just look at the evidence. and if youd have it, a certain someone did implicate a jew after her murder.
    Good point, Abby. Perhaps if Hutchinson was the killer he ruled if the graffito wouldn't do the trick he'd "identify" a jewish suspect and insert himself into the investigation at the same time? I'm not saying I subscribe to that belief but worth entertaining, no?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    He means Church Lane, one of the three ways to access Mitre Square.

    "From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat." - The Star, 1 October, 1888.

    We also have the following from the same issue of the Star, where PC Watkins.

    "Sometimes I go into Mitre-square through the Church-passage, but last night I entered from Mitre-street. It was just half-past one when I turned out of Aldgate and passed round the next corner into the square. At that time there was nothing unusual to be seen." I looked carefully in all the corners, as I always do, turning my lantern light in every direction. I am positive there was nothing wrong at that time."

    "And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

    "At about a quarter before two."

    "Had you met any person on your rounds?"

    "Not a soul."


    The story of the man in the sailor's hat is second hand. If this is the Ripper, it means that he waited half-an-hour after murdering Stride before wiping the blood off his hands. I also mean that within 4 or 5 minutes, the killer went from being afraid that one man would get a look at his to not caring if three men - Joseph Lawende, Joseph Levy, and Harris Harris - saw his face while he was talking to a woman he was about to murder.

    That leaves me very doubtful that Sailor Hat was the same man seen by Lawende, Levy, and Harris.

    witnesses are notoriously off on times, the important clue is that church lane man was also wearing a peaked cap, same as lawendes man and every other suspect seen by witnesses that night. it was more than likely the same man and the ripper.
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 10-09-2022, 01:03 PM.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    I see what you're getting at, Fiver.

    I also struggle to accept the GSG. It could be argued that all it needed was an oblique reference to Jews and a bloody rag to cause a fracas, but I try to see it from the profile of the killer. Many suppose that the guy seen manhandling Stride outside the club was the ripper. The same brute yelling racial epithets in the street is now writing cryptic messages in cursive handwriting? Had the words "LIPSKI" been written or something to that effect, I could get on board with it. As such, I don't know what was going through the killer's mind.

    Abby Normal makes the point that the killer had a grudge with the Jews. But the same killer who risked venturing out into the street with bloody evidence to cause a race riot never bothered in Miller's Court with time on his side? Did the killer have an agenda against the Jews or not? Were his anti-semitic tendencies only inflamed that particular night?

    Unless, of course, Mary Kelly was killed by someone else, but on the balance of probabilities that's extremely unlikely.
    hi Harry
    one only has to see burys thuggish brutish behavior and then look at his beautifully contructed and handwritten confession letter to know how an individual can, given the circs, act/appear as in polar opposites.

    and yes i think the ripper had a thing about jews, but as they were all up in his face the night of the double event, he used the opportunity of having the bloody apron to throw some shade and blame their way. not neccesarily to start a race riot, but put police on their trail and not his. he must have realized these jews were going to be talking to police about his description. and of course, with leather apron and the police leading theory about a jewish killer was probably fresh in his mind.
    and re mary kelly, who knows why serial killers do or do not do, should have could have etc. just look at the evidence. and if youd have it, a certain someone did implicate a jew after her murder.

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    He means Church Lane, one of the three ways to access Mitre Square.

    "From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat." - The Star, 1 October, 1888.

    We also have the following from the same issue of the Star, where PC Watkins.

    "Sometimes I go into Mitre-square through the Church-passage, but last night I entered from Mitre-street. It was just half-past one when I turned out of Aldgate and passed round the next corner into the square. At that time there was nothing unusual to be seen." I looked carefully in all the corners, as I always do, turning my lantern light in every direction. I am positive there was nothing wrong at that time."

    "And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

    "At about a quarter before two."

    "Had you met any person on your rounds?"

    "Not a soul."


    The story of the man in the sailor's hat is second hand. If this is the Ripper, it means that he waited half-an-hour after murdering Stride before wiping the blood off his hands. I also mean that within 4 or 5 minutes, the killer went from being afraid that one man would get a look at his to not caring if three men - Joseph Lawende, Joseph Levy, and Harris Harris - saw his face while he was talking to a woman he was about to murder.

    That leaves me very doubtful that Sailor Hat was the same man seen by Lawende, Levy, and Harris.

    Hi Fiver,

    Like I posted to Abby, it's another one of the curious parts of the pictures.

    Leave a comment:


  • Harry D
    replied
    Originally posted by Fiver View Post
    There is the idea that the GSG was chalked and the apron dropped as a way of taunting the police. That does fit the Saucy Jack persona, but as I have stated I think the Ripper persona was created by newspapermen to sell more newspapers and not a reflection of the personality of the real serial killer. Even then, the wording of the GSG does not match the style of any of the Ripper letters.

    So while I cannot completely rule out the idea that the GSG was chalked by the killer, it seems wildly unlikely that it was.
    I see what you're getting at, Fiver.

    I also struggle to accept the GSG. It could be argued that all it needed was an oblique reference to Jews and a bloody rag to cause a fracas, but I try to see it from the profile of the killer. Many suppose that the guy seen manhandling Stride outside the club was the ripper. The same brute yelling racial epithets in the street is now writing cryptic messages in cursive handwriting? Had the words "LIPSKI" been written or something to that effect, I could get on board with it. As such, I don't know what was going through the killer's mind.

    Abby Normal makes the point that the killer had a grudge with the Jews. But the same killer who risked venturing out into the street with bloody evidence to cause a race riot never bothered in Miller's Court with time on his side? Did the killer have an agenda against the Jews or not? Were his anti-semitic tendencies only inflamed that particular night?

    Unless, of course, Mary Kelly was killed by someone else, but on the balance of probabilities that's extremely unlikely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi al
    never heard of enon. i was referring to the anonymous (anon) church street sighting of the ripper, acting suspicious..sitting on some steps, wiping his hands and trying to hide his face. this was in between in time and place between the stride and eddowes murders.
    Sugdens all over it in his book.
    Hi Abby,

    Yeah, I was just curious about your turn of phrase, the Enon Chapel being a bit out the way. Anon/Enon.

    I've always found the Church Lane sighting interesting. If it's not Strides killer, it's a fool way to carry on in that climate, and likewise, it demonstrates that people were looking out and reporting things, highlighting the atmosphere the killer operated in. It's much like the "I am not the murderer" statement overhead that same night. Odd goings on in East London.

    Leave a comment:

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