A Victorian Apron Full of Questions...

[Fiver]

witnesses are notoriously off on times, the important clue is that church lane man was also wearing a peaked cap, same as lawendes man and every other suspect seen by witnesses that night. it was more than likely the same man and the ripper.

Clearly the times given are estimates, something everyone (except Fisherman) seems to understand.

The Church Lane man was wearing "a short jacket and a sailor's hat". That would be a sennet hat, as per the 20 March 1888 edition of the Navy List.

Sennet hats looked like this.




According to Swanson's notes, Lawende saw a man wearing a "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", which is different color, material, and style from a "sailor hat".

[Fiver]

I also struggle to accept the GSG. It could be argued that all it needed was an oblique reference to Jews and a bloody rag to cause a fracas, but I try to see it from the profile of the killer. Many suppose that the guy seen manhandling Stride outside the club was the ripper. The same brute yelling racial epithets in the street is now writing cryptic messages in cursive handwriting? Had the words "LIPSKI" been written or something to that effect, I could get on board with it. As such, I don't know what was going through the killer's mind.

If it was a plan to implicate the Jews, it was a pretty poor one. As you note, the GSG is an oblique reference, not a clear statement. There was no way of knowing that the apron piece would have been discovered by the police instead of just trodden under foot or pitched into a rubbish bin. There was no way of knowing that police would see the GSG before it was deliberately or accidentally erased.

If the Ripper really wanted Jews to be blamed, a far smarter method would have been to chalk a clear message at one of the murder sites.

[DJA]

Clearly the times given are estimates, something everyone (except Fisherman) seems to understand.

The Church Lane man was wearing "a short jacket and a sailor's hat". That would be a sennet hat, as per the 20 March 1888 edition of the Navy List.

Sennet hats looked like this.




According to Swanson's notes, Lawende saw a man wearing a "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", which is different color, material, and style from a "sailor hat".

Rather like the black wideawake the man Sarah Lewis saw opposite Miller's Court was wearing.

[Fiver]

I've always found the Church Lane sighting interesting. If it's not Strides killer, it's a fool way to carry on in that climate, and likewise, it demonstrates that people were looking out and reporting things, highlighting the atmosphere the killer operated in. It's much like the "I am not the murderer" statement overhead that same night. Odd goings on in East London.

It's a fool way to carry on in that climate period - whether Sailor Hat was Stride's killer or just some random guy who happened to be in the area.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Based on the testimonies of Robert Paul and Charles Cross, they traveled together for a significant way. Heading west on Buck's Row, it ended in a T intersection, with Montague. Turning right, they went a block north on Montague, where they encountered PC Mizen near the corner of Montague and Hanbury Street.

From there, Cross and Paul walked west in Hanbury to Corbett's Court, a distance of several blocks. Paul worked as a carman for some firm there, though we do not know who. To the immediate west was Spitalfield's Market.

Charles Cross would have continued west an slightly south from there towards the Broad Street Station, though we do not know by what route.

The total distance that Paul and Cross traveled together appears to be roughly 15 blocks.

No. I know their routes. I was asking after the Nichols murder, the days after, did anyone know if Cross continued to take that route to work.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

hi al
never heard of enon. i was referring to the anonymous (anon) church street sighting of the ripper, acting suspicious..sitting on some steps, wiping his hands and trying to hide his face. this was in between in time and place between the stride and eddowes murders.
Sugdens all over it in his book.

That sighting was never clear though. Witness never could discern what that man was actually doing. Witness thought wiping his hands, but given the press, most everyone seeing anyone sitting down in the wee hours and moving their hands might think the same thing. The witness never said they saw a knife. And given the poor lighting, there's no way to know if this stranger had anything to do with Eddowes' murder. I think this sighting leans closer to another "clue" red herring.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

hi books
is cutting off breasts, ears and noses, cutting out internal organs and cutting throats so deep as to almost decapitate so different from cutting off limbs? not to me it isnt.

then you have the other connections of similar sig, victimology, time and place, unsolved and both end at the same time. then you have the very specific stomach flaps cut away in jackson, kelly and chapman.
difference can be ascribed to not having his bolt hole available and or escaltion.

added to that the rarity of two post mortem body parts removers in same town and time. the thought of two such cretins operating at the same time and place is too much a coincidence for me.

now all that being said, i realize of course the differences could mean it wasnt the same man, i just lean heavily, say 75%, toward they were.

There is a difference in the activity though...
Torso cut elsewhere.
Blood trained elsewhere.
Limbs dumped elsewhere.
Torso carried to site.

That's a ton if risk and effort.
Jack wasn't interested in either.

I totally get your reasoning -- two murderers in same locale -- but I think all the press Jack received made other weirdos act over mere fantasizing. And a murderer could kill and happily assume Jack would get the cop grief. It was a win-win time for killer types.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

I was merely answering a posters original question until polly parrot decided to get involved

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

No. I know their routes. I was asking after the Nichols murder, the days after, did anyone know if Cross continued to take that route to work.

Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Unless Lechmere or a member of his immediate family kept a diary and happened to write it down, I doubt we will ever know.

Of course if a diary did surface, the people trying to fit Lechmere up for the crime would say changing his route meant he had a guilty conscience and it proves he was guilty, while keeping his route meant he was reliving the murder in his imagination every time that he passed the spot and it proves he was guilty.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

If it was a plan to implicate the Jews, it was a pretty poor one. As you note, the GSG is an oblique reference, not a clear statement. There was no way of knowing that the apron piece would have been discovered by the police instead of just trodden under foot or pitched into a rubbish bin. There was no way of knowing that police would see the GSG before it was deliberately or accidentally erased.

If the Ripper really wanted Jews to be blamed, a far smarter method would have been to chalk a clear message at one of the murder sites.

Yep, yep, and a big fat yep.
Write at the kill site like every other murderer has done since forever.
I was waiting for someone to say this!
There was zero way Jack would know
1) a cop going down a certain street
2) looking into a certain dark alcove
3) would find a certain torn apron
4) that night.
You want to have an affect?
You chalk it up all you want at the kill sites.
Someone here on this thread talked on probabilities.
Well, here you are. Probability.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Unless Lechmere or a member of his immediate family kept a diary and happened to write it down, I doubt we will ever know.

Of course if a diary did surface, the people trying to fit Lechmere up for the crime would say changing his route meant he had a guilty conscience and it proves he was guilty, while keeping his route meant he was reliving the murder in his imagination every time that he passed the spot and it proves he was guilty.

Damned if you do or don't. Yeah.
Here's what I DO know.
Cross/Lechmere did NOT kill Nichols.
And he wasn't the Ripper.

[MrBarnett]

Damned if you do or don't. Yeah.
Here's what I DO know.
Cross/Lechmere did NOT kill Nichols.
And he wasn't the Ripper.

And you know that how?

[MrBarnett]

Clearly the times given are estimates, something everyone (except Fisherman) seems to understand.

The Church Lane man was wearing "a short jacket and a sailor's hat". That would be a sennet hat, as per the 20 March 1888 edition of the Navy List.

Sennet hats looked like this.




According to Swanson's notes, Lawende saw a man wearing a "grey cloth cap with peak of same colour", which is different color, material, and style from a "sailor hat".

London wasn’t a Royal naval port. Try again looking for merchant navy hats

[DJA]

Worth a read.

Hutchinson The Sailor Man - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[MrBarnett]

Bearing in mind that the majority of sailors wandering around the East End at the time would have been foreign merchantmen, it’s not clear what the locals would have meant by a ‘sailor’s hat’. Something like these would be my best guess.