How to make Ripperology better?

[John Wheat]

Oh God, ero b - your last line had me pissing myself!

You didn't mention if you were completely off your tits on Bells at the time, but I imagine you were?

Cheers,

Ike

PS I'm sure everyone who's anyone understood your clever post. Imagine a scenario where you posted with regular hostility regarding the scrapbook and it turned out you didn't know what the **** you were talking about! Shurely shum mishtake?

Yes he is clearly talking about Mike Barrett and without knowing it is basically proving my point that Barrett wrote the diary. The idea that Barrett a known conman and published writer didn't write the diary is frankly laughable.

[Iconoclast]

I designed the Gherkin building in London. I drew a picture gave it to some builders and they built it. I will testify on an affidavit to that effect.

I did it. it was me.

Evidence? Erm...I bought some pens for the drawing from a shop. Oh receipt? I don't have one of those. I did put an ad out asking for some blueprint designs to a building so surely that shows I intended to draw it. Where did I get the blueprints in the end? Off some bloke in a pub. He's dead now so he can't verify it, but I swear under oath its all true, every bit of it.

I said I did it, so I did it.

Actually, I lied. I didn't do it.

Oh God, ero b - your last line had me pissing myself!

You didn't mention if you were completely off your tits on Bells at the time, but I imagine you were?

Cheers,

Ike

PS I'm sure everyone who's anyone understood your clever post. Imagine a scenario where you posted with regular hostility regarding the scrapbook and it turned out you didn't know what the **** you were talking about! Shurely shum mishtake?

[Iconoclast]

What are you on about?

ridiculous

[John Wheat]

I designed the Gherkin building in London. I drew a picture gave it to some builders and they built it. I will testify on an affidavit to that effect.

I did it. it was me.

Evidence? Erm...I bought some pens for the drawing from a shop. Oh receipt? I don't have one of those. I did put an ad out asking for some blueprint designs to a building so surely that shows I intended to draw it. Where did I get the blueprints in the end? Off some bloke in a pub. He's dead now so he can't verify it, but I swear under oath its all true, every bit of it.

I said I did it, so I did it.

Actually, I lied. I didn't do it.

What are you on about?

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms. Diddles.

Well, I'll make it brief, so not to derail the thread...

I'm an Indie Rock sort of guy, so it's Belle and Sebastian, The Pastels, Camera Obscura, and Primal Scream.

I draw the line well before the Bay City Rollers, though!

Who am I missing? Any recommendations?

Cheers.

Dropped you a pm!

[erobitha]

Ignore the Barrett written Diary and all the buffoons that believe it's written by James Maybrick.

I designed the Gherkin building in London. I drew a picture gave it to some builders and they built it. I will testify on an affidavit to that effect.

I did it. it was me.

Evidence? Erm...I bought some pens for the drawing from a shop. Oh receipt? I don't have one of those. I did put an ad out asking for some blueprint designs to a building so surely that shows I intended to draw it. Where did I get the blueprints in the end? Off some bloke in a pub. He's dead now so he can't verify it, but I swear under oath its all true, every bit of it.

I said I did it, so I did it.

Actually, I lied. I didn't do it.

[John Wheat]

Since everyone is talking about the deplorable state and shaking their heads, let's hear it. How precisely can the field of Ripperology be made better. Other than killing off those we don't like, including me: What would you do? And specifically How to make Casebook better?

How to make it a more cooperative, shared effort and less dog-eat-dog?

Ignore the Barrett written Diary and all the buffoons that believe it's written by James Maybrick.

[rjpalmer]

Sitting here in Glasgow, I really want to ask you about those favourite bands, Roger!!!!!

Hi Ms. Diddles.

Well, I'll make it brief, so not to derail the thread...

I'm an Indie Rock sort of guy, so it's Belle and Sebastian, The Pastels, Camera Obscura, and Primal Scream.

I draw the line well before the Bay City Rollers, though!

Who am I missing? Any recommendations?

Cheers.

[Ms Diddles]

Ike - No offense intended, Old Boy--you could be a 6' tall woman living in a nursing home in Montgomery, Alabama, for all I know, but your not infrequent references to haggis, Sir Walter Scott, golf, and freezing your backside off have caused me to forever associate you with Scotland. I doubt this impression is going to go away anytime soon. Anyway, some of my favorite bands are out of Glasgow, so I feel a kinship with that city. It's not an insult.

Sitting here in Glasgow, I really want to ask you about those favourite bands, Roger!!!!

I don't want to get into trouble for de-railing the thread.

Regards from Glasgow though!

[Iconoclast]

Oh bullshite, Ike.
I never took you for a man who would have "bought in" to the superficialities of Krafft-Ebing, but it looks like you have.
I suppose next you'll tell me that David Berkowitz thought of his .44 handgun as a substitute penis. A little-too Freudian for my liking.
There is something far more complex and psychologically elusive going on with these reprobates than simply an attempt to get a bone-on.

Well, RJ, I think you misunderstand me - I doubt Chikatilo ever thought of his penis as a .44 in the same way Sam's son didn't think of his .44 as a penis. I've no time for Freudian shite either.

But I do accept that a person's mind can be so corrupted in childhood that physiologically certain things only work if extreme circumstances are met; and I accept that Chikatilo ticked all those boxes. Those who overcome and deal with such trauma should be applauded (if we ever knew who they were) and those who allow themselves to succumb to them should get what Chikatilo got. Not very liberal, I know, but heartfelt nevertheless.

Ike

[rjpalmer]

Chikatilo killed because that was the only way he could maintain an erection and climax.

Oh bullshite, Ike.

I never took you for a man who would have "bought in" to the superficialities of Krafft-Ebing, but it looks like you have.

I suppose next you'll tell me that David Berkowitz thought of his .44 handgun as a substitute penis. A little-too Freudian for my liking.

There is something far more complex and psychologically elusive going on with these reprobates than simply an attempt to get a bone-on.

Indeed, if 'Ripperology' wanted to improve the quality of its thinking, the first task would be to toss most of the F.B.I. psycho-babble into the round file. Douglas & Co. weren't trained scientists. Much of their thinking is wildly circular and overly simplistic--great fodder for shockumentaries, but not to be taken seriously.

But thanks, anyway, Ike.

[Iconoclast]

Here's a philosophical --or psychological-- point to ponder, Ike. Ripperologists are suddenly keen on looking for wife beaters.
But is 'wife beating' a reliable sign that someone might be a secret multicide?

I have no doubt in my mind that wife-beating is on a spectrum which ends with multicide (a term I've never heard of, by the way). If you're referring to ero b's comments recently, I think he was making the point that Maybrick was no saint where it came to treating Florie consistently well in response to someone who had suggested that he had no track record of violence towards women (James Maybrick, obviously, not ero b).

Does our boy Jack go out and treat other women in the street the same way he treats his own wife?
Is it that simplistic?
I think not.

You've answered your own question. Jacky inter alia do to others what they would generally never do to their wives. They have personal lives too and - generally speaking - they wish to protect those as much as you and I do.

Peter Kurten--whose crimes resembled the Ripper's very closely-- worshiped his own wife. He placed her on a pedestal that dripped with sentimentality. Yet this adoration didn't prevent him from going out and cutting other women to pieces.

I don't think it there is a strict psychological rule we can look up to check how a serial killer will behave. What links them is what they do not why they do it.

Andrei Chikatilo, the so-called 'Russian Ripper' was another such case. He spoke of his wife as a living saint.

Chikatilo killed because that was the only way he could maintain an erection and climax. This psychosis was entirely the product of a terrible upbringing (though few people with similar terrible upbringings will fail to control their urges in the way he failed to). With his wife, they were able to conceive 'manually' so he could be a father and therefore he could have a personal life to come home to and cherish. There were far too many more vulnerable people and children he could attack to get his kicks (if there weren't, maybe Mrs C would indeed have been in danger one day).

Wasn't Sutcliffe another example? If I recall correctly, Sonya, or whatever her name is, wore the britches, and Sutcliffe almost cowered before her.

Sutcliffe followed the Chikatilo mould in that he enjoyed a personal life but satisfied his psychoses via harming others. Indeed, he famously claimed to have attacked one victim as a result of his jealousy over Sonia pretty much as Maybrick essentially claimed to have done.

In this regard, your diarist seems to have convinced Dr. Canter, but I'm afraid that he hasn't convinced me all that much. To my mind, the diarist's constant references to his own wife as 'the whore' strike something of a false note. The whole scenario and motivations for his crimes come across as cartoonish, and, with apologies to Dr. Canter, I'm far from convinced that the psychology is as convincing as he claims it is.

Which brings us to James Maybrick, rather nicely. He loved Florie and his kids and his nice house and his nice business - oh, and his mistress and her kids (possibly, possibly not) but he needed to satisfy his 'psychosis' and - as he had decided in the terrible mores of the day that his wife's infidelities (real or perceived) made her a woman without virtue - he decided to avenge himself on sex workers instead of on his wife and her supposed lovers. Serial killers are generally pretty spineless bastards as a rule and James Maybrick was definitely no exception. Again, you could blame his 'psychosis' on the arsenic, but others in similar situations would have controlled themselves and he chose not to. Jammy bastard got away with it, but not if I have my way.

Now, does that make the James Maybrick as Jack the Spratt McVitie story believable? Well, that's one where only personal opinion really has any place. I'm willing to grant it, though I agree that there is no serial killer pre-behaviours on the record (not to say he wasn't a deviant and we just don't have the evidence) and it does seem a stretch to trundle down to Whitechapel, London, every time he wanted to rip like a ripe peach, et cetera, when he could have just nipped on an omni and done the same in Whitechapel, Liverpool. I'm willing to accept that that's what he chose to do and - I have no doubt - if my knowledge of serial killers was any better than it is, I'd probably be able to list a number of them who hopped in the old charabanc and motored through the mud of the old Roman roads to kill a long way from home for whatever reason suited them. Where is MrB when you need him?

In brief, there is an enormous gulf between a run-of-the-mill wife beater and 'Jack the Ripper,' otherwise the UK would have been full of 'Jack the Rippers' because wife beaters were two-a-penny in the Victorian era.

Absolutely. Wife-beaters are simply on a violence spectrum along which some of them may occasionally drift.

Ike

[Iconoclast]

Ike - No offense intended, Old Boy--you could be a 6' tall woman living in a nursing home in Montgomery, Alabama, for all I know, but your not infrequent references to haggis, Sir Walter Scott, golf, and freezing your backside off have caused me to forever associate you with Scotland. I doubt this impression is going to go away anytime soon. Anyway, some of my favorite bands are out of Glasgow, so I feel a kinship with that city. It's not an insult.

No, indeed, RJ, it is not an insult. For clarity, I am English, married to a Scot. I had spent twenty-three years in Scotland prior to us moving to the English Midlands where we have been these past twelve years. That makes me part-celt, I reckon. As the baby polar bear said to its mum, "Am I really a polar bear?", "Yes, dear, you are", "No, I mean really a polar bear?", "Yes dear, you are really a polar bear", "Like, a proper, real polar bear?", "Yes, dear, you are a proper, real polar bear. Why do you ask?", "'cos I'm ******* freezing".

Like that baby polar bear, we have rather acclimatised ('acclimated' to you, RJ) to the kinder southern weather so I doubt we'll be back up north except for jolly holidays.

Ike

[rjpalmer]

RJ, Who are these Ripperologists (plural) who are ‘suddenly’ keen on finding wife beaters?

Don't take it personally, Gary. I'm not really interested in an argument. To each his own. You mentioned Maywood, and then Erobitha tried to up-the-ante by bringing up Maybrick's alleged 'numerous' instances of domestic abuse. The Bury advocates then made their presence known, pointing to Bury as a wife beater.

I think the general impression was that 'Ripperology' would be 'better off' (which is the subject of this thread) if people were looking for someone with a history of spousal or domestic abuse.

A.P. Wolf did quite a lot of work years ago, chronicling the exploits of various bullies and/or domestic tyrants in the East End, not infrequently announcing that they were far better suspects than those named by the police. Some of these reprobates were quite interesting from a socio-economic point of view.

I'm just not convinced that the psychology is necessarily correct, but that's all I'm saying. If you disagree, then by all means reject my psychological observations.

One thing I would say though, is that if Mary Kelly was a 'one-off' victim of an acquaintance, I might be tempted to look a little closer to home. Barnett has his accusers, as does Michael Kidney.

But that's really an entirely different question. Attributing one or more of the victims to a spurned lover, in itself, wouldn't explain why we appear to be looking at a series.

The Barnett accusers attempted to solve this apparent weakness in their theory by coming up with a suggestion that wasn't too far removed from the Royal Conspiracy.

[MrBarnett]

Here's a philosophical --or psychological-- point to ponder, Ike. Ripperologists are suddenly keen on looking for wife beaters.

But is 'wife beating' a reliable sign that someone might be a secret multicide?

Does our boy Jack go out and treat other women in the street the same way he treats his own wife?

Is it that simplistic?

I think not.

Some will dismiss the following as a psychological cliché, but I think there is something to be said for the ol' 'Whore/Madonna Syndrome.'

Peter Kurten--whose crimes resembled the Ripper's very closely-- worshiped his own wife. He placed her on a pedestal that dripped with sentimentality. Yet this adoration didn't prevent him from going out and cutting other women to pieces.

Andrei Chikatilo, the so-called 'Russian Ripper' was another such case. He spoke of his wife as a living saint.

Wasn't Sutcliffe another example? If I recall correctly, Sonya, or whatever her name is, wore the britches, and Sutcliffe almost cowered before her.

In this regard, your diarist seems to have convinced Dr. Canter, but I'm afraid that he hasn't convinced me all that much. To my mind, the diarist's constant references to his own wife as 'the whore' strike something of a false note. The whole scenario and motivations for his crimes come across as cartoonish, and, with apologies to Dr. Canter, I'm far from convinced that the psychology is as convincing as he claims it is.

In brief, there is an enormous gulf between a run-of-the-mill wife beater and 'Jack the Ripper,' otherwise the UK would have been full of 'Jack the Rippers' because wife beaters were two-a-penny in the Victorian era.

Or, as we say on the Pacific Rim, a 'dime a dozen.'

RJ, Who are these Ripperologists (plural) who are ‘suddenly’ keen on finding wife beaters?