Originally posted by FISHY1118
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
you keep missing the point and you are not listening or reading the posts. I accept that the two pieces matched, but you cant seem to grasp the fact that when the two pieces were matched there isnt any evidnce to show that they made up a full apron. So if you say she was wearing a full apron where did the rest of it go?
www.trevormarriott,co.uk
You might have missed this:
Daily News 5 Oct 1888 - Inquest - Dr Brown:
My attention was called to the apron which the woman was wearing. It was a portion of an apron cut, with the string attached to it (produced). The blood stains on it are recent. Dr. Phillips brought in a piece of apron found in Gouldstone street, which fits what is missing in the one found on the body.
Cheers, George
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Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
That comes from a hypocraphal tale from one of the police memoirs written many years later (I forget who just now). It never happened - well, the blood was not found still swirling down the sink, as he told he found it.
- Jeff
That was Major Henry Smith, Acting Commissioner City of London Police in 1888. The tale was contained in his 1910 memoirs "From Constable to Commissioner: The Story of Sixty Years Most of Them Misspent". He placed the sink incident first in relation to Mitre Square, and a few pages later placed the same incident after Miller St. His memoirs were particularly harsh on "the blunders" of Anderson.
Best regards, George
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Originally posted by FrankO View Post
Daily News of October 5:
"My attention was called to the apron which the woman was wearing. It was a portion of an apron cut, with the string attached to it (produced). The blood stains on it are recent. Dr. Phillips brought in a piece of apron found in Gouldstone street, which fits what is missing in the one found on the body. It is impossible to assert that the blood is human blood. It looks as if it had had a bloody hand or a bloody knife wiped upon it."
Evening News of October 5:
"Was your attention called to this portion of an apron which was found upon the woman? - It was. There were stains of blood upon the apron.
Are the stains of recent origin? - They are. Dr. Phillips afterwards brought me a piece of apron which had been found in Goldstone street by a policeman. The stains are those of blood, but it is impossible to say that it is human blood.
On the piece of apron brought in by Dr. Phillips were there smears of blood as if some one had wiped bloodstained hands upon it? - Yes. There were also what appeared to be stains of faecal matter."
Morning Advertiser of October 5:
"Was your attention called to this portion of an apron which was found upon the woman?-It was. There were stains of blood upon the apron.
Are the stains of recent origin?-They are. Dr. Phillips afterwards brought me a piece of apron which had been found in Goulstone-street by a policeman. The stains are those of blood, but it is impossible to say that it is human blood.
On the piece of apron brought in by Dr. Phillips were there smears of blood as if someone had wiped blood-stained hands upon it?-Yes. There were also some other stains."
St. James Gazette of October 5:
"He had examined a portion of an apron found on the deceased with blood spots upon it of recent origin. He had also seen another portion of the apron found in Gouldstone street, which had smears of blood upon it as if hands or a knife had been wiped upon it."
Times of October 5:
"Could you say whether the blood spots on the piece of apron produced were of recent origin? Witness. - They are of recent origin. Dr. Phillips brought on a piece of apron which had been found by a policeman in Goulston-street.
Mr. Crawford. - Is it impossible to assert that it is human blood? Witness. - Yes; it is blood. On the piece of apron brought on there were smears of blood on one side as if a hand or a knife had been wiped on it. It fitted the piece of apron in evidence."
All the best,
Frank
Thank you for those references. I must be slipping. I should have remembered that different reporters give different selections of testimony at the inquests.
Best regards, George
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
and you have no answer to the facts quoted to support the theory, other than your polly parrot impression of keep repeating the same old same.
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
you keep missing the point and you are not listening or reading the posts. I accept that the two pieces matched, but you cant seem to grasp the fact that when the two pieces were matched there isnt any evidnce to show that they made up a full apron. So if you say she was wearing a full apron where did the rest of it go? and how did the piece found among her posessions come to be there and was not seen on the body. not forgetting that she carried her possessions in two tick bags
Because they were matched by the seams they had to have come from the same side of the apron, therefore one piece with a string attached was from the top half and the other piece from the bottom half. making up half an apron and again if the killer lifted up all her clothes above her waist was he able to cut a piece of apron for whatever purpose when it would have been easier for him to cut a piece of material from any other item of her clothing which was more accesible because the apron would have been the furthest away from him.
She had more than enough time after leaving the police station to make her way back to Flower and Dean Street, if she did that I have no idea why she didnt go to her lodgings and then decided to go back to the City and try to make some money to compensate for the money she had spent on drink earlier in the day.
What cant speak can lie there is no sign of an apron or any piece of an apron in Fosters sketch of the body that is another factor which clearly shows she was not wearing an apron.
www.trevormarriott,co.uk
Why couldn’t the killer have simply cut through the waistband and then across? There were stabs through her clothing so why couldn’t the apron have been cut before the skirt was lifted? So in effect the apron was already partially cut away, leaving the killer with only one cut to make to cut the piece away?
Why would Foster have drawn the apron? Especially if had become bunched up or twisted?
She was wearing an apron. No doubt at all.
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Originally posted by FrankO View PostI see what you mean, Trevor, although what you say doesn't mean that hands can't be wiped on only one side of a cloth (as the photo on the right seems to portray). The only thing you have to do is to fold the cloth in half. But also, who's to say whether "on one side" meant "only on the front or back side" instead of "the upper or lower side" of the apron piece? And, of course, it's also possible that he only had one hand he needed to wipe off (using his other hand to only hold the knife).
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Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
Which Forster sketch would that be , can you post it ?.....as ive only seen one that was from the Mortuary .
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Not even close. Your simply making a deliberate and very convenient attempt to discredit them based on a desire to bolster your own theory.
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Originally posted by FrankO View PostFair enough.
Daily News of October 5:
"My attention was called to the apron which the woman was wearing. It was a portion of an apron cut, with the string attached to it (produced). The blood stains on it are recent. Dr. Phillips brought in a piece of apron found in Gouldstone street, which fits what is missing in the one found on the body. It is impossible to assert that the blood is human blood. It looks as if it had had a bloody hand or a bloody knife wiped upon it."
Evening News of October 5:
"Was your attention called to this portion of an apron which was found upon the woman? - It was. There were stains of blood upon the apron.
Are the stains of recent origin? - They are. Dr. Phillips afterwards brought me a piece of apron which had been found in Goldstone street by a policeman. The stains are those of blood, but it is impossible to say that it is human blood.
On the piece of apron brought in by Dr. Phillips were there smears of blood as if some one had wiped bloodstained hands upon it? - Yes. There were also what appeared to be stains of faecal matter."
Morning Advertiser of October 5:
"Was your attention called to this portion of an apron which was found upon the woman?-It was. There were stains of blood upon the apron.
Are the stains of recent origin?-They are. Dr. Phillips afterwards brought me a piece of apron which had been found in Goulstone-street by a policeman. The stains are those of blood, but it is impossible to say that it is human blood.
On the piece of apron brought in by Dr. Phillips were there smears of blood as if someone had wiped blood-stained hands upon it?-Yes. There were also some other stains."
St. James Gazette of October 5:
"He had examined a portion of an apron found on the deceased with blood spots upon it of recent origin. He had also seen another portion of the apron found in Gouldstone street, which had smears of blood upon it as if hands or a knife had been wiped upon it."
Times of October 5:
"Could you say whether the blood spots on the piece of apron produced were of recent origin? Witness. - They are of recent origin. Dr. Phillips brought on a piece of apron which had been found by a policeman in Goulston-street.
Mr. Crawford. - Is it impossible to assert that it is human blood? Witness. - Yes; it is blood. On the piece of apron brought on there were smears of blood on one side as if a hand or a knife had been wiped on it. It fitted the piece of apron in evidence."
True enough George, but it was also the only victim with whom he had to deal with faecal matter. So, yes, the evidence doesn’t preclude that he used the apron piece to stop some relatively minor cut from bleeding, just as it doesn’t preclude that the main purpose for taking it was to clean his hands, knife and, possibly, the organs from especially the faecal matter. The thing is that we know too little. For instance, we don’t know how big the wet corner was and whether it was only blood or even whose blood it was.
There’s no way for us to know. What you suggest, does sound sound & logical, but that doesn’t mean it has to be true. He may well have mostly ran/jogged for a minute or 2 (some 450 metres/490 yards) to first get some distance between himself and the crime scene before reaching Goulston Street and deeming the entrance to the building safe enough to do the wiping and dumping. Perhaps it was a bit of both (stopping the bleeding, if there was any on his part, and first getting some distance away from the crime scene). Who knows?
All the best,
Frank
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
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Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
you keep missing the point and you are not listening or reading the posts. I accept that the two pieces matched, but you cant seem to grasp the fact that when the two pieces were matched there isnt any evidnce to show that they made up a full apron. So if you say she was wearing a full apron where did the rest of it go? and how did the piece found among her posessions come to be there and was not seen on the body. not forgetting that she carried her possessions in two tick bags
Because they were matched by the seams they had to have come from the same side of the apron, therefore one piece with a string attached was from the top half and the other piece from the bottom half. making up half an apron and again if the killer lifted up all her clothes above her waist was he able to cut a piece of apron for whatever purpose when it would have been easier for him to cut a piece of material from any other item of her clothing which was more accesible because the apron would have been the furthest away from him.
She had more than enough time after leaving the police station to make her way back to Flower and Dean Street, if she did that I have no idea why she didnt go to her lodgings and then decided to go back to the City and try to make some money to compensate for the money she had spent on drink earlier in the day.
What cant speak can lie there is no sign of an apron or any piece of an apron in Fosters sketch of the body that is another factor which clearly shows she was not wearing an apron.
www.trevormarriott,co.uk
Which Forster sketch would that be , can you post it ?.....as ive only seen one that was from the Mortuary .
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