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  • A question of time.

    Although I am fairly new to these pages, I have been a student of all matters relating to JtR for many years. One difficulty I used to have, which many other people experience, is attempting to put important events into a usable time frame, for example the many confusing and conflicting incidents that allegedly took place around Berner Street at the time of the Stride murder, or the time scale of the events at Buck's Row. I look at the timing of events differently, because of a magazine article which I read some years ago.

    The article was called something like "The way things were" and featured a re-print of an interview (from about 1895) with a fairly ordinary everyday man, but who was a sort of local "celebrity" in, I think, Stepney. He was well-known locally because of some success as an amateur sportsman, or something of the sort, but I don't remember much about his personal life, because it was his comments about "time" that grabbed my attention, and I remember those quite well.

    He was the youngest of many children, and when he married, he and his wife stayed in his childhood home to care for his one surviving parent, so that in 1895, at the age of 70 plus, he had lived in the same house all of his life. He started work for his one employer in his teens, first as a menial tea boy cum sweeper-up, then graduating to semi-skilled, then skilled, then foreman, and then some sort of senior foreman by the time he retired. On his last day of work, he was presented with a watch which was said to have been an excellent time-keeper. He had never had a watch previously in his life, and said that very few working men had one. He set the watch to the works clock and walked home as he had done all of his working life. The walk always took 20 minutes, gave or take a minute or so, but he was astonished, despite his age, to time the walk at only 15 minutes. He then noticed that the grandfather clock in his house, which they regularly corrected to agree with the nearby church clock, was five minutes slow. He concluded that for over 50 years he had walked to and from work, always believing it took 20 minutes, when it really was just 15 minutes, all because his home and the works clocks were presumably synchronised with two different time sources!

    A few days later, he took his wife to the city to see the sights, and re-set his watch to agree with Big Ben, as his watch proved to be 2/3 minutes fast. He then decided that his home clock had typically been about 2/3 minutes slow, and the works clock, typically 2/3 minutes fast. He admitted he became like a child with a new toy, and found himself checking the accuracy - or frankly the inaccuracy - of all the church and street clocks which he saw. He said that he was amazed by the variation he found, and reckoned that very few were even reasonably accurate, and many were quite inaccurate. Ten minutes error was not rare, and on one occasion he found two clocks in one London suburb which were twenty minutes off! He was so obsessed that he laughed, when telling how his wife had scolded him for being embarrassing because he had said to one shop-keeper, "Do you realise that your clock outside is almost 15 minutes slow?"

    So, I got a slightly different picture of victorian London, after reading this, and after absorbing some other bits of information. The typical working man, and that would be most of the Eastenders of the day, probably did not own a watch. Indeed, police officers, even those engaged in "knocking-up" duties, rarely had watches, and judged time by the clock they last passed. Clocks on view to all, like church clocks and shop clocks, were accepted by the locals as telling the time, but were likely to be inaccurate.

    So when considering JtR related incidents I do not expect timescales to tally. Time was a foggy nebulous approximation in 1888. We naturally want to try to be precise when assessing an incident, but what hope have we got? At Buck's Row, for example, we had Lechmere giving an approximate time, based on his home clock, Paul giving a more precise time, but based on his home clock, three police officers estimating possibly from three different clocks that they passes on their beats, and then the doctor relating times to presumably his home clock and/or watch. We naturally want to work out how long each aspect of their various actions may have taken, but how can we do this accurately when each individual was using a different source for his estimate of the time? It is reasonable to try to do this, of course, as long as we remember that it is all a bit approximate!

    Other contributors may have information to share about issues relating to the measurement of time in victorian London.
    Last edited by Doctored Whatsit; 01-03-2022, 02:30 PM.

  • #2
    I don’t think that there’s any evidence that Lechmere or Paul had a clock at home my dear Whatsit. I’m not saying that they couldn’t have had them but I don’t think that we can assume it.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      I don’t think that there’s any evidence that Lechmere or Paul had a clock at home my dear Whatsit. I’m not saying that they couldn’t have had them but I don’t think that we can assume it.
      Agreed, it is only probable, but I think, my dear Sholmes, that we may accept that they provided their times, or estimates of the time, by the nearest street clock to their homes if we so wish. It doesn't really matter, because the point was that everyone was using a different time source, and they were never going to all be synchronized.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Whatsit,

        I found this article by Chris McKay to be informative.

        'The issue is I believe of how accurate was time measured in London in the 1880s.
        I think it depends who you were.
        If you were well off you had a good pocket watch, the clocks in your house were wound weekly by a local clockmaker, who one would hope had a reasonable standard of time. Any decent clockmaker would have a shop regulator, a clock that told time accurately; let us say it might vary by 10 seconds a
        week at the most.
        Then there is the problem of how the regulator was set. A sundial was one possibility, a good large sundial could tell the time to a minute, but the user needs to be aware of the equation of time; that difference between solar time and mean time. The striking of Big Ben is accurate to a
        second... you have to allow for the speed of sound so a map was published for London showing the delay. Even so, you are talking about 10 seconds at the most, and if you know where you are, then you can compensate. London then
        was not so built up, so I think the clock could be heard over a larger range
        A new St Paul's Cathedral clock was installed in 1892, the previous clock was by Bradley and was set by a sundial, it could be probably read to within 20 seconds.
        Several balls were erected in London from 1852 onwards, these were released by telegraphed time.
        Time signals could be telegraphed to those who paid for them. The British Horological Institute (BHI) installed a telegraph instrument in 1862, and this was used to correct a regulator. Members could then come with an accurate watch to 'get the time'.
        Ruth Belville took a pocket chronometer round Clerkenwell, I think here customers were mainly chronometer makers. Pretty crazy since they could get the time by telegraph if they paid, or from the BHI in Northampton Square.
        So perhaps the 'Gentleman' in the street in London would know the time by his watch to within half a minute. This being derived from a clock at home and that being set by his clockwinder.
        Taking the traders, they would have watches, but probably no clockwinder to regulate their house clocks. So they are down to using Big Ben, St Paul's, the time ball for accurate time and the local church clock otherwise.
        The working class generally did not have watches, though they possibly had cheap clocks that were being imported from America. Watches could be had from America and Switzerland for a tenth of the price of an English watch.
        You will have heard probably of the dollar watch. Their watches and clocks would have been set by the nearest public clock. I remember an old man telling me that during WW1 when he was a lad, his mother asked him to run down to the church and get the time. So we have an accuracy of several
        minutes.
        This is somewhat confused by the local church clock. Certainly in village we know that early in the 19th century variations from village to village were of the order of plus and minus 20 minutes or even more.
        I am not familiar with church clocks in Whitechapel, but their clock setting was often at the whim of the clock winder. Perhaps plus or minus 10 minutes could be expected, or even more.
        So, if the working man's watch or clock was within 10 minutes of true time, I would think that good for the 1880s.

        You need to understand why time was needed. First to regulate a local community. The absolute standard did not really matter, that all met together at the appointed time was sufficient. In larger communities the railway was the one that called the shots, the train left at Railway (Greenwich) time and it was tough if you missed it due to your poor clock or
        watch. Factories were another corporate gathering place. Again, their standard was absolute to them, so provided all were through the gate by the set time on their clock, then all was OK. The fact that it was fast or slow of GMT was irrelevant. Churches publicised their services by bells, so
        the exact time of starting was not too important.

        Overall I think that if you found a clock in the East End that was telling time to within 10 mins of GMT you were doing well.

        Regards, Chris McKay


        The last sentence is interesting for times in 1888. If one witness clock source was ten minutes fast and another's ten minutes slow, you can still be "doing well" with a discrepancy of twenty minutes. Throw in estimating after the actual clock sighting and that we have only contradictory press reports, even from inquests, for the time statements and.....well, you know the rest.

        Cheers, George
        Last edited by GBinOz; 01-04-2022, 12:21 AM.
        Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi,

          A few months ago I found an article on clocks and times during the Victorian era. At the time I was hoping to find some information about how far out two different clocks generally were (ideally, of course, would be detailed information about how probable a clock would be out by 5 minutes, 10, 15, etc, but even an average would have been great). Sadly, they didn't have what I was looking for, but it was informative all the same.

          Apparently, in the early 1900s, I forget the exact year, but there was a flurry of letters to the papers by people insisting something be done to deal with just how unreliable the clocks were and that the city really had to do something to standardize their settings. The closest I came to what I was looking for implied that basically the range appeared to span about 15 minutes, meaning, once the noon chimes started, you would expect to hear them for the next 15 minutes! That seems a bit unlikely given it would mean that at the end of the noon chimes, a series of quarter past would then start, and chimes would therefor be constantly going off all the time somewhere! Perhaps the majority of clocks just struck the hour, and only a few would sound the others.

          Regardless of just how accurate that 15 minute span claim was/is, it still remains that even in the 1900's (pre-WWI), the variation between clocks was large enough that people noticed, and by this time, wanted it dealt to. It would hardly have been any better in 1888.

          So, as a rule of thumb, I tend to figure if we're dealing with two stated times, both of which we know were read from a clock, if they fall within 10 minutes of each other (so a "true time +- 5 minutes"), then we shouldn't claim that is evidence there's something "wrong, and clearly one is a lie", rather, that's the sort of differences we should expect to find even if both people are being truthful - they read their clocks and stated the time their clock said, the problem is, the two clocks being referred to are not reading the same script.

          - Jeff

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          • #6
            Thanks George and Jeff, you have more than confirmed my recollections! The police at the time clearly understood these variations in time readings, which is why they accepted minor differences in witness evidence. Some of us refuse to recognise this, unfortunately.

            Comment


            • #7
              Railways started introducing synchronised in the 1840's for trains and stations. Railway workers were required to own an approved pocket watch with a prerequisite number of jewels in it to ensure accuracy. Outside the railways for the general public it was pretty much a free for all until the 1900's. I have some good articles on Victorian time keeping, but I can't find them at the moment.
              dustymiller
              aka drstrange

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              • #8
                Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                Railways started introducing synchronised in the 1840's for trains and stations. Railway workers were required to own an approved pocket watch with a prerequisite number of jewels in it to ensure accuracy. Outside the railways for the general public it was pretty much a free for all until the 1900's. I have some good articles on Victorian time keeping, but I can't find them at the moment.
                Yes, the railways started synchronising times, but there was a period where the town in which the railway was would still keep "local time", so the train station and the town would be out of sync, causing all sorts of confusion for a rather long time. This lasted for years in some places, and there was a lot of resistance to setting a standard time setting across the UK. This was one of the interesting areas covered in the article I read a while back. It's a rather interesting, if eclectic, area of history.

                - Jeff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks dusty. I believe that I read somewhere that the railways used GMT, and so did police stations, I think. Elsewhere it was "pot-luck".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks again Jeff. I believe I read once that some people thought that the stations with the correct time, were the ones causing the problems! People missed a train, and blamed the railway clock and not the local clocks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post
                      Thanks George and Jeff, you have more than confirmed my recollections! The police at the time clearly understood these variations in time readings, which is why they accepted minor differences in witness evidence. Some of us refuse to recognise this, unfortunately.
                      Hi Dr. Whatsit,

                      Just replying to bump this thread back up as it relates to the time aspects discussed in the Long vs Cadosch thread starting around here.

                      Anyway, your suggestion that the police would be aware of such things is, I think, demonstrated by Baxter's summing up as well (ok, he's the coroner, but part of the legal process etc) where he says "...There is some conflict in the evidence about the time at which the deceased was despatched. It is not unusual to find inaccuracy in such details, but this variation is not very great or very important. ..."



                      - Jeff
                      Last edited by JeffHamm; 04-26-2023, 09:09 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        Hi Dr. Whatsit,

                        Just replying to bump this thread back up as it relates to the time aspects discussed in the Long vs Cadosch thread starting around here.

                        Anyway, your suggestion that the police would be aware of such things is, I think, demonstrated by Baxter's summing up as well (ok, he's the coroner, but part of the legal process etc) where he says "...There is some conflict in the evidence about the time at which the deceased was despatched. It is not unusual to find inaccuracy in such details, but this variation is not very great or very important. ..."



                        - Jeff
                        I agree. Coroners must have come across time discrepancies regularly, and seem to have accepted them as inevitable. We should do so too, I think!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think some valuable reminders have been addressed in this thread. Some witnesses, (not the Police ..people actually charged with keeping their beat times recorded based on station house timepieces), made some very specific timing claims about when they saw what they claimed to have seen, or how long it took them to get from A to B. Any witness who insists that he was correct in his timing, with the obvious unknown variations in virtually every timepiece in London at the time, would seem to me to be attempting to establish their value in the investigation, or their innocence with respect to the crime. For the victims who were "witnessed" within 5-10 minutes of their murder, this becomes a case of sorting out why the witnesses give the time they gave, perhaps more relevant than the actual time itself in some cases.
                          Michael Richards

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                          • #14
                            To illustrate my point, take George Hutchinson. He says he saw Mary and Astrakan Man enter the courtyard sometime after 2am. He stayed and watched the courtyard for about 3/4 of and hour and then left, as per his statement to Abberline.

                            Now, is George trying to provide valued assistance to the police with this statement, in which case the obvious issue of waiting 4 days to come forward would counter that idea, or is he trying to establish that he saw a Mary Kelly quite alive at 2-3am with someone heading into her room, with the benefit of having Sarah Lewis's sighting to validate his claim he was there and of the time? Was he establishing his innocence, since he claimed he knew Mary? Might he be suspected since he knew where she lived? Was he insinuating another suspect into the investigation by virtue of the story? Was he creating a narrative that suggests Mary brought her killer into the square herself, rather than someone went in to her room while she had passed out from drinking and singing?

                            The times given by witnesses cannot be validated by any single timepiece in the city, but the rationale for those particular times may be far more relevant. I cite Louis Diemshitz's assertion he arrived "precisely" at 1 as another case worth looking closer at. Particularly when there are several witnesses who stated they saw him in the passage as much as 15 minutes earlier than that. What was the reason for his absolute time of 1am? Was that for the benefit of the investigation, or to give himself an alibi?
                            Last edited by Michael W Richards; 04-28-2023, 09:28 PM.
                            Michael Richards

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              To illustrate my point, take George Hutchinson. He says he saw Mary and Astrakan Man enter the courtyard sometime after 2am. He stayed and watched the courtyard for about 3/4 of and hour and then left, as per his statement to Abberline.

                              Now, is George trying to provide valued assistance to the police with this statement, in which case the obvious issue of waiting 4 days to come forward would counter that idea,...
                              Hi Michael.
                              The 'waiting 4 days' issue can easily be countered if theorists would only look at the press articles for Friday to Sunday (9th-11th). The police had no idea what hour Mary had been murdered, the press were all publishing a variety of theories but, the most popular was that of Maxwell & Lewis, that Kelly was likely murdered after 9:00am Friday morning.
                              This is what the public thought, there was no other official opinion, so naturally this would be what Hutchinson thought also.
                              The solution why Hutchinson didn't bother coming forward is obviously that he didn't think seeing Kelly with a man between 2-3:00am was of any use when her murder took place after 9:00am., that is only reasonable, so there's no mystery, he wasn't holding back, he wasn't trying to think up excuses.

                              What did happen on Sunday was the press reported the first official opinion concerning Kelly's time of death, that it was nearer 3:00am, Hutch did say he approached a policeman on Sunday to tell him what he knew. However, following the inquest on Monday one of the early newspapers who went to press in the afternoon reported that a Mrs Cox must have seen the murderer at midnight. This, Hutch would have known was a mistake because he saw Kelly at 2:00am, so after discussing this with a friend at the lodging house Hutch went to the police station.


                              Regards, Jon S.

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