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Charles Letchford

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Without reading back over that piece of research did he claim that Letchford had more than one sister? Or did he just suggest 3 possible candidates for that sister? Why would he have needed to mention the sister?
    Although there’s no record given for 1888 we know that in 1891 the household only consisted of..

    . Edward Letchford 53, general labourer, born Bromley, Kent
    Susannah Letchford 55, needlewoman, born Mereworth, Kent
    Henry Letchford 21, paper miller, born Camberwell, London
    Edward Letchford 9, born St. George East, London.
    As opposed to 1881…

    . Edward Letchford 43, carman (unemployed), born Bromley, Kent
    Susannah Letchford 43, born Mereworth, Kent
    Florence Letchford 21, general domestic servant, born Islington, Middlesex
    Martha Letchford 19, general domestic servant, born Islington, Middlesex
    Charles Letchford 15, steam sawyer’s assistant, born Shoreditch, Middlesex
    Elizh. Letchford 13, born Islington, Middlesex
    Henry Letchford 11, born Walworth, Surrey
    Ada Letchford 8, born Walworth, Surrey
    Mary A. Letchford 4, born St Geo East, Middlesex
    So we can’t assume that there was more than one sister at home and we can’t assume that there was a baby in the house. I’d also suggest that even though Charles Letchford was listed as a Barman in 1889 we can’t assume that he was a Barman in 1888 let alone how close to Berner Street his place of work might have been.



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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    If someone in the house did go outside and learn of the murder, then the entire household would have soon been made aware of this, regardless of what they were doing at the time. As a consequence, Letchford would then most likely have gone outside himself, and mentioned this obvious fact to the reporter. Instead, the reader gets the impression that Letchford did not learn of the murder until after sunrise, and so it can be presumed that no one went out after the discovery.

    That of course, is the basis for the theory - that Letchford did go out while others slept or attended to the newborn, and returned about 2am. He pretends he didn't go out, so that he is not put in a position of being asked to describe details he cannot supply.
    But if Letchford was in bed, he could very well have not known his sister went out, and she ends up being detained with everyone and doesn't get back until he's asleep, so he's unaware of it. He goes to work before she awakens, and is interviewed before he hears of it. Or, she doesn't tell him because he's a nasty fellow, and she would get in trouble for having gone out and getting mixed up in the affair, etc.

    Again, we have no information, so any story can be told to make it sound like anything at all. Without evidence, or data, to constrain that story, we're limited only by our imaginations. You've made him JtR, or at least Stride's killer, for example. Sure, there's nothing to disprove that, but that's because there's nothing at all to work with. I've made him nasty, or an early riser, and there's no way you can disprove those either. Without guidance by some sort of evidence, it's all just guesswork. And the odds of guessing who killed Stride are pretty long.

    - Jeff

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    So again, it appears to me he either failed to mention that someone in his house did take notice or he failed to mention that nobody took notice. Which of those failures really happened, though, cannot be determined. In fact, given Mr. Letchford most likely said more than what was reported, we can't even be sure he did fail to mention the above. All we know is that if he did mention it, it did not make it to the paper.
    If someone in the house did go outside and learn of the murder, then the entire household would have soon been made aware of this, regardless of what they were doing at the time. As a consequence, Letchford would then most likely have gone outside himself, and mentioned this obvious fact to the reporter. Instead, the reader gets the impression that Letchford did not learn of the murder until after sunrise, and so it can be presumed that no one went out after the discovery.

    That of course, is the basis for the theory - that Letchford did go out while others slept or attended to the newborn, and returned about 2am. He pretends he didn't go out, so that he is not put in a position of being asked to describe details he cannot supply.

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Jeff,
    what scenario do you suppose was most likely? He tells us that a sister was at the door at 12:50. He tells us he took no notice of the situation outside. Would he really have omitted mentioning that a sister did take notice?

    By the way, one of the three sisters may not have been at #30 that night.
    Hi NBFN,

    I have no way of knowing which was more likely. I don't know Mr. Letchford so I don't know what sort of things he may or may not mention. I don't know how closely he monitor's the activities of the people in his household. Is he someone who spends a lot of time working or reading in his room, away from others? If so, he might have no clue as to whether or not his sister(s) noticed anything, and so doesn't indicate either way. It's an unknowable bit of information, and while I could impose my own personal beliefs, that is just imposing my own bias onto what is basically a void. We have no information about the person, their household, their tendency to or not to observe things, their tendency to state things they themselves just assumed. That's sort of what you're asking me to do - what do I assume would be most likely underlies asking what I suppose to be most likely - and what I assume in this situation cannot be evaluated for its accuracy, and I could very well assume something that is completely the opposite of what the reality was.

    I caution against the temptation to fill in missing pieces with our assumptions, unless we can find a way to then test those assumptions. In this case, I can't think of a way to test them because of how little we have to work with, and what we do have has already been put through a journalist's filter. We're not even getting Mr. Letchford's words, we're getting a journalist telling us some of the information they jotted down during an interview, so the wording is not likely what Mr. Letchford himself said but rather reflects the gist as the journalist understood it to mean. It's probably not even everything Mr. Letchford said, just the bits the journalist chose to mention. And that pretty much makes it impossible, in this case, to form an opinion.

    So again, it appears to me he either failed to mention that someone in his house did take notice or he failed to mention that nobody took notice. Which of those failures really happened, though, cannot be determined. In fact, given Mr. Letchford most likely said more than what was reported, we can't even be sure he did fail to mention the above. All we know is that if he did mention it, it did not make it to the paper.

    - Jeff
    Last edited by JeffHamm; 12-06-2021, 12:46 AM.

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Charles Letchford was a working class Englishman. What was the class and nationality of the man who wrote this...?

    The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi NBFN,

    Well, if at least one of his sisters had taken notice, then yes, he failed to mention it. If none of his sisters had taken notice, then he also failed to mention that. Since he didn't tell us whether or not any or none of his sisters took notice, we don't know which of those failures occurred.

    - Jeff
    Jeff,
    what scenario do you suppose was most likely? He tells us that a sister was at the door at 12:50. He tells us he took no notice of the situation outside. Would he really have omitted mentioning that a sister did take notice?

    By the way, one of the three sisters may not have been at #30 that night.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Letchford tells us he took no notice of the commotion and police whistles. Would he have failed to mention that one or more of the sisters had not done likewise?
    Without reading back over that piece of research did he claim that Letchford had more than one sister? Or did he just suggest 3 possible candidates for that sister? Why would he have needed to mention the sister?

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Stride had no apparent reason for standing in that gateway. Schwartz's claim to have seen a man walk down the street, who stops to speak to the woman and then starts to assault her, is arbitrary. No one claimed to have known anyone who had a grudge with Liz, just as no one had ever seen 'low' women standing in or near the gateway. Yet the real story leaks through...

    The man tried to pull the woman into the street...

    So someone was blocking the gateway. What didn't they want the 'intruder' to see?

    ...but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway...

    So he tried to pull her into the street ... but ... failed? So the broad shouldered man had difficulty pulling the thin, narrow shouldered woman? Evidently the 'woman' had balls.
    It’s not that she had no reason to stand in the gateway it’s just the case that we’re unaware of that reason.

    Schwartz was walking past at the time so this might just have the impression that he got from seeing a scuffle. Maybe the guy pulled her because he wanted her to go somewhere with him. She refused and pulled back and ended up on the ground.

    If we accept that Schwartz was there (and you might or might not accept that) then why would he have lied about what he’d seen? He said that he walked along Berner Street behind a seemingly drunk BS Man.

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi NBFN,

    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Letchford tells us he took no notice of the commotion and police whistles. Would he have failed to mention that one or more of the sisters had not done likewise?
    Well, if at least one of his sisters had taken notice, then yes, he failed to mention it. If none of his sisters had taken notice, then he also failed to mention that. Since he didn't tell us whether or not any or none of his sisters took notice, we don't know which of those failures occurred.

    - Jeff

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Why do you claim that the Letchford household were dealing with a newborn as if it’s a fact, when the research that you yourself quoted from Barnaby’s Assistant mentions three candidates for Letchford’s sister and only one of them had a baby at the time?
    Letchford tells us he took no notice of the commotion and police whistles. Would he have failed to mention that one or more of the sisters had not done likewise?

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Are you still trying to suggest that the killer was standing in the gateway waiting for Stride, when Schwartz himself tells us that he walked along Berner Street behind BS Man?
    Stride had no apparent reason for standing in that gateway. Schwartz's claim to have seen a man walk down the street, who stops to speak to the woman and then starts to assault her, is arbitrary. No one claimed to have known anyone who had a grudge with Liz, just as no one had ever seen 'low' women standing in or near the gateway. Yet the real story leaks through...

    The man tried to pull the woman into the street...

    So someone was blocking the gateway. What didn't they want the 'intruder' to see?

    ...but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway...

    So he tried to pull her into the street ... but ... failed? So the broad shouldered man had difficulty pulling the thin, narrow shouldered woman? Evidently the 'woman' had balls.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    As is the case with Letchford's place of work, a careful reading of the initial post would provide an answer to this question. The Letchford household was dealing with a newborn. By killing Stride and returning home long enough to hear the police whistles, he then has an excuse to 'go outside to investigate', while the women stay inside. Your imagination is then meant to do the rest
    Why do you claim that the Letchford household were dealing with a newborn as if it’s a fact, when the research that you yourself quoted from Barnaby’s Assistant mentions three candidates for Letchford’s sister and only one of them had a baby at the time?

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Nicely done!



    Why would she have necessarily had to have lied? What would she have seen? We are told she were at her doorstep at 12:50. Now if the supposed Schwartz incident is claimed to have taken about 30 seconds - sans unseen waiting in gateway and running to railway arch - then I would suggest it would have taken Letchford under 10 seconds to walk from Dutfield's Yard to the doorway of 30 Berner street. So the 'Letchford incident' could have been of much shorter duration than the incident described by Schwartz, but with no shouts, screams, assaults, pursuits, or extra characters. The later is vastly more likely to have been noticed, than what I'm hypothesizing occurred with Letchford.



    As is the case with Letchford's place of work, a careful reading of the initial post would provide an answer to this question. The Letchford household was dealing with a newborn. By killing Stride and returning home long enough to hear the police whistles, he then has an excuse to 'go outside to investigate', while the women stay inside. Your imagination is then meant to do the rest.



    Evidently this hypothetical window watcher wasn't watching when Schwartz & co. came to town. As for someone on the street recognizing him as the man with the parcel, if that had occurred, he has the option of not killing Stride - so apparently that wasn't the case. Again, we have to compare this to what is being put forward as the alternative; a man who was seen assaulting Stride by two witnesses, proceeds to kill Stride. If that is not far-fetched, then neither is my story.



    Somehow we need to get the killer and victim into the yard, unseen, and the killer out of the yard, unseen. One way of doing this is to suppose that someone turned a blind eye to something. It's probably worth reminding that Fanny Mortimer was not called to the inquest.
    Are you still trying to suggest that the killer was standing in the gateway waiting for Stride, when Schwartz himself tells us that he walked along Berner Street behind BS Man?

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  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Yes I am. You appear to assume that he was working in a nearby pub for some unknown reason. And just the fact that he’d done that kind of work still doesn’t justify an assumption. If he was working in a pub he could have been working at one a mile away. And you are also questioning why Fanny didn’t see him.
    Nicely done!

    But whether we believe him or not Letchford mentions her and so she was there to be questioned by the police. Would she have lied for him if there was a chance of him being a murderer? Not impossible.
    Why would she have necessarily had to have lied? What would she have seen? We are told she were at her doorstep at 12:50. Now if the supposed Schwartz incident is claimed to have taken about 30 seconds - sans unseen waiting in gateway and running to railway arch - then I would suggest it would have taken Letchford under 10 seconds to walk from Dutfield's Yard to the doorway of 30 Berner street. So the 'Letchford incident' could have been of much shorter duration than the incident described by Schwartz, but with no shouts, screams, assaults, pursuits, or extra characters. The later is vastly more likely to have been noticed, than what I'm hypothesizing occurred with Letchford.

    I would ask again though would the ripper have killed a few doors from where he lived?
    As is the case with Letchford's place of work, a careful reading of the initial post would provide an answer to this question. The Letchford household was dealing with a newborn. By killing Stride and returning home long enough to hear the police whistles, he then has an excuse to 'go outside to investigate', while the women stay inside. Your imagination is then meant to do the rest.

    If he’d passed along the street unseen why would he have come forward simply to say that he’d seen nothing? If someone had seen him through a window say, then he could easily have explained to the police that he hadn’t come forward because he hadn’t seen anything. At most he’d have received a mild telling off. And if he was Parcelman would he have loitered around increasing the chances of someone seeing and recognising him.
    Evidently this hypothetical window watcher wasn't watching when Schwartz & co. came to town. As for someone on the street recognizing him as the man with the parcel, if that had occurred, he has the option of not killing Stride - so apparently that wasn't the case. Again, we have to compare this to what is being put forward as the alternative; a man who was seen assaulting Stride by two witnesses, proceeds to kill Stride. If that is not far-fetched, then neither is my story.

    Might Fanny have deliberately not mentioned seeing him? Again not impossible I guess. If she was friendly with the Letchford’s and she knew that Charles had a girlfriend she might have kept schtum if she’d seen him talking to a strange woman on the street. And if he’d just walked straight passed and gone home she might have justified her action by telling herself that he couldn’t have been the killer. I don’t see this as very likely though.
    Somehow we need to get the killer and victim into the yard, unseen, and the killer out of the yard, unseen. One way of doing this is to suppose that someone turned a blind eye to something. It's probably worth reminding that Fanny Mortimer was not called to the inquest.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    No. I'm saying that if Letchford killed Stride - and he seems a good candidate for Parcelman - then we cannot trust what he said about his sister. That includes her being at the door or not, at what time, and what she had seen or not seen, including what she may have turned a blind eye to.

    Are you aware of why I suppose Letchford makes a good candidate for Parcelman, and what arguments I gave for him being the Ripper?
    Yes I am. You appear to assume that he was working in a nearby pub for some unknown reason. And just the fact that he’d done that kind of work still doesn’t justify an assumption. If he was working in a pub he could have been working at one a mile away. And you are also questioning why Fanny didn’t see him.

    But whether we believe him or not Letchford mentions her and so she was there to be questioned by the police. Would she have lied for him if there was a chance of him being a murderer? Not impossible. I would ask again though would the ripper have killed a few doors from where he lived? If he’d passed along the street unseen why would he have come forward simply to say that he’d seen nothing? If someone had seen him through a window say, then he could easily have explained to the police that he hadn’t come forward because he hadn’t seen anything. At most he’d have received a mild telling off. And if he was Parcelman would he have loitered around increasing the chances of someone seeing and recognising him.

    Might Fanny have deliberately not mentioned seeing him? Again not impossible I guess. If she was friendly with the Letchford’s and she knew that Charles had a girlfriend she might have kept schtum if she’d seen him talking to a strange woman on the street. And if he’d just walked straight passed and gone home she might have justified her action by telling herself that he couldn’t have been the killer. I don’t see this as very likely though.

    So personally I don’t see Letchford as a candidate. Others might agree with you though.

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