The press, what they knew and how they knew it.

[DVV]

Hello David
Yes I thought that last post might also wake you up

Actually I woke up when I noticed Garry did not believe in the double event.

With Ben I'm still sleeping on my two ears (straight from French).

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

and Voodoo Astrakan could make the corpse walk ?

Cheers (from Haiti)

The police did not give up easily on Hutchinson's story...

"The prisoner, it may be remembered, had been sought for by the police in consequence of a report of his movements on the night of the murder of Mary Janet Kelly in Dorset street, Spitalfields; and it was said by the police that they wished the fullest inquiry as to the prisoner's movements on the night of Nov. 8."
Daily News, 15 Dec. 1888.

The police apparently did not give up on Isaac's without a fight, but precisely what his alibi was is lost to us now.

A bird in the hand (Bond's opinion) is worth two in the bush (any suspect after 2:00 am).

[DVV]

I'm lost, Jon.
How could Hutch tell the truth if she were dead already ?

Back to back
Belly to belly
And I don't give a damn
I've done dead already...

[DVV]

and from another song

"I've never told the truth
So I can never tell a lie..."

Tom "Hutch" Waits

[Bridewell]

Deleted

[Wickerman]

I'm lost, Jon.
How could Hutch tell the truth if she were dead already ?

The police did not 'know' if she was dead by 2:00 am, neither did they 'know' if Hutchinson's suspect was culpable in any way.
No confirmation was available in support of Bond's opinion, but neither was there any confirmation of Astrachan killing Mary Kelly.

If Bond was mistaken, then Mary died sometime later, but whether that was at 3:00 am, 4:00am or still later cannot be verified.

You should remember the controversy over what Dr. Phillips had said about the death of Chapman, in contention with the statement of Richardson who was adamant that her body was not in the yard.
The police went through great pains to find a weakness in Richardson's story because they were naturally inclined to work with the professional medical opinion. Likewise, their natural inclination is to work with the professional opinion of Dr Bond. But, that does not mean his opinion is beyond dispute.

The 'Hutchinson' investigation did not end abruptly, it faded over time, which indicates no conclusive determination was accepted with respect to the precise hour of her death.

[DVV]

You seem to be preaching to the converted, here, Jon.

I know Bond's TOD (= between 1 and 2am) is meaningless, since he didn't know at what time MJK had her last meal.

But you are of opinion that Hutch had always told the truth.

Hence my question : how could the impeccable Hutch have seen MJK when she was already dead, according to the impeccable Bond ?

Cheers

[Wickerman]

You seem to be preaching to the converted, here, Jon.

I know Bond's TOD (= between 1 and 2am) is meaningless, since he didn't know at what time MJK had her last meal.

But you are of opinion that Hutch had always told the truth.

Hence my question : how could the impeccable Hutch have seen MJK when she was already dead, according to the impeccable Bond ?

Cheers

I don't think she was already dead. Hutchinson told the truth. That is my opinion.

Bond's report (in collaboration with Phillips, it must be noted) erroneously concluded her death to be earlier than actuality. This was the reason for the change in direction of the investigation for Scotland Yard (not the City Police, we should note).

The basic premise of any Hutchinson argument has always been this erroneous belief that he was discredited. It is necessary to understand the impact that the medical opinion would have had on the direction of the investigation.
This is not an attempt by me to establish that Bond was correct, it is more to explain why the Hutchinson investigation faded out over time with no tangible resolve.

[DVV]

I don't think she was already dead. Hutchinson told the truth. That is my opinion.

Bond's report (in collaboration with Phillips, it must be noted) erroneously concluded her death to be earlier than actuality. This was the reason for the change in direction of the investigation for Scotland Yard (not the City Police, we should note).

The basic premise of any Hutchinson argument has always been this erroneous belief that he was discredited. It is necessary to understand the impact that the medical opinion would have had on the direction of the investigation.

Understood, Jon, but it makes little difference : if, as you are saying, Bond's TOD changed the direction of the investigation, that just means the police considered Hutch a liar. What else could they think ?
(But imo Bond's hazardous estimation didn't play any role here.)

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Understood, Jon, but it makes little difference : if, as you are saying, Bond's TOD changed the direction of the investigation, that just means the police considered Hutch a liar. What else could they think ?
(But imo Bond's hazardous estimation didn't play any role here.)

Cheers

Had they "considered him a liar" as you put it, they would have dropped the investigation immediately which they did not do.

Even the press made no such claim. If you recall the Hutchinson Enquiry was described as of "reduced importance", not abandoned altogether.
So "lying" was not under consideration, but their change of direction is more consistent with a directive from above.

The Met. were "induced" to realign their inquiry with the Cox witness while the City force maintained a focus on the well-dressed man suspect.
There was no clear cut decision which is indicative of no definite solution to the dilemma.
A lying witness would have been a clear cut resolution, but clearly that was not the case in the eyes of the Met.

[DVV]

Jon, my friend, I have no idea what you're talking about.
I just won the H-Cup.
That's no lie !

18 May 2013 : RCT Champion d'Europe, capitaine : Jonny Wilkinson

Cheers all
I have some Bowmore to talk with.

[Wickerman]

Jon, my friend, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thats understandable David, I was surprised you held in there for as long as you did

I just won the H-Cup.
That's no lie !

18 May 2013 : RCT Champion d'Europe, capitaine : Jonny Wilkinson

Cheers all
I have some Bowmore to talk with.

Congratulations, I'm sure you'll find it more benificial, just put your feet up and knock 'em back!

[Ben]

The basic premise of any Hutchinson argument has always been this erroneous belief that he was discredited. It is necessary to understand the impact that the medical opinion would have had on the direction of the investigation. This is not an attempt by me to establish that Bond was correct, it is more to explain why the Hutchinson investigation faded out over time with no tangible resolve.

You repeat this nonsense far too often, Jon, and as though it has never been thoroughly refuted, which it has, many times. Hutchinson's discrediting (which is a reality, not an "erroneous belief") had absolutely nothing to do with Bond's time of death, which, incidentally, was not accepted without question by the police. On the contrary, it is quite clear from other sources that the police considered the mutually corroborative evidence of Lewis and Prater to be a rough guide in that respect. The Echo makes perfectly clear the reasons for Hutchinson's evidence being "considerably discounted", and it involved his lateness in coming forward and the inevitable impact this had on his credibility.

Nothing to do with any "change of direction from above" - just the lessening of importance attached to Hutchinson because they doubted his credibility.

Had they "considered him a liar" as you put it, they would have dropped the investigation immediately which they did not do.

No, they wouldn't have done.

If they could "prove" him a liar, they would have dropped him immediately. The reality, however, is that they merely suspected him of lying, which wouldn't have been sufficient to drop him altogether. Having said that, there is absolutely no evidence that Hutchinson's evidence was still taken seriously after the 15th November (when the Star also mentioned that his account was "now discredited" under the heading "worthless stories lead police on false scent"), so the discrediting process can hardly have been a very drawn out one, and his chit chat with the press can only have expedited it.

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

I'm afraid you may have seriously misinterpreted Garry's post if you thought he was arguing against the Victoria Home being a likely location for a ripper's bolt-hole. You won't find a single criminologist or expert in geographical profiling argue that the Victoria Home was too close to the murder locations to be a credible lair for the killer. In fact, it's difficult to envisage many places better suited.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Bridewell,

The area was Commercial Street. Why was Astrakhan Man out of place for Commercial Street, one of the main London thoroughfares?

That part of Commercial Street was slap bang in the middle of one of the most notorious areas of London. With Dorset Street on one side and Flower and Dean Street on the other, it wasn't a place for anyone to be in the small hours of the morning at the height of the ripper scare, however much of a thoroughfare it was, especially not an ostentatiously-dressed dandy whose appearance matched a lot of the bogus "ripper" attributes.

Setting aside my very serious doubts that your average East End local had the means or the opportunity to pull of even a remotely convincing Astrakhan get-up, I'm far more inclined to rule out such a scenario on the basis that nobody would be that imprudent, less still the actual killer, whose previous strategy of dressing like the working class local he probably was, had proved perfectly effective up until then.

You're quite right to highlight the poor lighting conditions, but this only reinforces how unlikely it is that Hutchinson could have even seen many of the items he described, let alone notice them and confuse them for something more valuable. Any sort of watch chain was almost certain to be hidden beneath two overcoats in a dark street in Victorian London.

All the best,
Ben