The "Invisible Man" effect.

[Lechmere]

Just picking up on an earlier point made in this thread, that I'd never thought about before, should we be looking at the people who discovered various of the victims as the potential culprit.
Also what about researching to see if anyone involved in the case had a policeman as a close relative that could have affected their thinking in some way? A step father maybe? That sort of thing.

[RivkahChaya]

I think the real barrier to someone in Whitechapel dressing up like a priest or rabbi etc. is that I can't really see hem being able to afford the very distinctive clothing. And they couldn't wear just a part of it, because then people are asking "Why are you wearing priest coat?" It's one of those things where it looks like every other black wool coat, but they are distinctively cut, and anyone who attends regular services would immediately know the difference between a guy in a black suit with a collar and a priest in a priest's suit with a collar. Unless this guy is in the theater, and then they would have really good replicas, even in poor theaters. Never bet against a community theater seamstress.

Maybe JTR was a tailor? Whole closet full of clerical clothes, police uniforms, leather aprons...he could be anyone he needed to be for the time and place.

Frankly, I don't think a psychopath could make it through ordination.

That's because you are thinking mostly in terms of rabbis, and protestant ministers. There are orders of Catholic priests that deal very little with the public.

Then, this was the Victorian era. I'm not sure how much interpersonal skill being a minister required "up front," so to speak. I mean, if you go to seminary now, you have to take classes in things like "pastoral counseling," and if you don't pass though, you don't make it to ordination, but I don't think those were in the curriculum back then. Also, I don't think the psychological screening was as intense. Did the deity personally call you? good enough. No one prodded too much into what the experience was like, to find out what else the deity might have said, or whether the demon Pazuzu also talks to you, or your dead grandmother. No one asked back then whether you were gay, and saw the priesthood as the only alternative to a typical married life that was acceptable to your parents. No one asked whether you had ever gotten into a fight that left the other person unconscious, or had tortured animals for fun when you were a child.

So, many of the red flags that go flying all over the place in a preliminary interview, just didn't happen back then.

'Course, if you diddled an alter boy back then, you ran the risk of his father beating you to a pulp, and the police not being much interested in making any arrests, but considering the matter settled.

[Errata]

Actually Ted Bundy worked a suicide hot line and was directly responsible for talking several people out of killing themselves. Anne Rule who worked with him had a very hard time reconciling the deadly serial with the caring man who worked with her. Several people stated that they wouldn't be alive without Bundy. Unfortunately there are also a lot who wouldn't be dead except for Bundy as well...

Suicide hotline is different. That's a race against time, so there's an adrenaline factor to it. Picture Bundy sitting in a confessional for six hours on a Monday.

[RavenDarkendale]

Frankly, I don't think a psychopath could make it through ordination. I know any number of sociopathic cops, and they are good cops. But a priest requires a lot of interpersonal skills, and the job is pretty much based on empathy. I mean, you have to be able to speak publicly, and you have to be able to empathize. Not something most serial killers excel at.

Actually Ted Bundy worked a suicide hot line and was directly responsible for talking several people out of killing themselves. Anne Rule who worked with him had a very hard time reconciling the deadly serial with the caring man who worked with her. Several people stated that they wouldn't be alive without Bundy. Unfortunately there are also a lot who wouldn't be dead except for Bundy as well...

[Errata]

Frankly, I don't think a psychopath could make it through ordination. I know any number of sociopathic cops, and they are good cops. But a priest requires a lot of interpersonal skills, and the job is pretty much based on empathy. I mean, you have to be able to speak publicly, and you have to be able to empathize. Not something most serial killers excel at. So if Jack was a priest, he wasn't a psychopath. Or at least didn't start out as one. There are certain mental illnesses that present in the mid 30s. But psychopathy as best anyone can tell either is something a person is born with, or something that person gets through frontal lobe injury. So if the priest is known to have gotten a serious blow to the head or was poisoned by something, he could become a psychopath.

But I don't think Jack was a classic psychopath. I think he was mission oriented, so didn't have a lot of empathy for his victims, but was otherwise apparently normal. Honestly I think his murders were very Freudian. I think he was working out very intense personal conflict about women, and probably his own mother. Essentially I think he developed a very maladapted coping mechanism. Which doesn't require psychopathy, and it doesn't involve mental illness. It's what those of us with mental illness call "issues". I have Bipolar, my sister has issues. Baggage that was well earned.

[Ginger]

How about Christ Church in Whitechapel? Isn't it feasible that a priest from there might be seen roaming through the area at all times to administer last rites, visit the sick, proselytize among the poor and "unfortunates", do you think?

JtR as fanatical clergyman. Might just work!

I know Rev. Samuel Barnett (who was at the time vicar of St. Jude's, IIRC) has been proposed before as a suspect, both by people who were quite serious, and those who were less so.

[RavenDarkendale]

How about Christ Church in Whitechapel? Isn't it feasible that a priest from there might be seen roaming through the area at all times to administer last rites, visit the sick, proselytize among the poor and "unfortunates", do you think?

JtR as fanatical clergyman. Might just work!

[Errata]

Would a UKer confirm that an Anglican minister/priest wears a collar like a Catholic priest? Episcopalian priests do, so I'm assuming yes. Also, Episcopalians have Last Rites, so I'm assuming Church of England does as well.

I'm thinking trying to get to a dying person in time is why a priest might be out all hours-- although, someone usually has to go get them. It's on the return trip, not hurrying, when they'd be alone.

Errata, are you suggesting that JTR actually was a minister, or just dressed like one to get around at night? That sure does sound like one way not to get stopped and questioned by the police. If you have the collar on, the police won't suspect you, and probably will assume you'd come forward on your own if you'd witnessed something. "Hurrying," might even be a way to get the police not to stop you, if you are dressed like a minister/priest, whereas it would arouse suspicion if you weren't.

How often do you supposed people with clerical collars patronized prostitutes? I mean, I'm sure ministers did so, but I just feel somehow that they would remove the collar. Not that I suppose it would necessarily make a prostitute think anything like "He might be the Ripper," if they were approached by a man in one, even if it was odd.

One thing about priests, rabbis, and ministers. They wore a whole lot of black wool, which doesn't show blood. Even if a cop saw a priest at a dead run through the streets, if the priest had a bible and a bottle of oil then no one is going to get in the way of Last Rites.

He could have been a cleric. It has long been a refuge for some damaged people, especially sexually damaged people. Not all of them, not even most of them, but a life of the spirit can be an excellent way of checking out as opposed to dealing with your problems.

I think the real barrier to someone in Whitechapel dressing up like a priest or rabbi etc. is that I can't really see hem being able to afford the very distinctive clothing. And they couldn't wear just a part of it, because then people are asking "Why are you wearing priest coat?" It's one of those things where it looks like every other black wool coat, but they are distinctively cut, and anyone who attends regular services would immediately know the difference between a guy in a black suit with a collar and a priest in a priest's suit with a collar. Unless this guy is in the theater, and then they would have really good replicas, even in poor theaters. Never bet against a community theater seamstress.

But I will say this. It could explain the sudden cessation of the murders without anyone ever confessing to the crime. If it was a priest (not so much a rabbi) and they were found out by a superior, we know that it's vanishingly unlikely that this person would have been turned over to civilian authorities. More likely he would have transferred to a secluded order to spend the rest of his life in solitary reflection, or whatever they would call it. Realistically he would be sent to a monastic order and walled into his cell.

[Bridewell]

Who would avoid notice as being part of the background furniture around the crime scenes?

I guess you wouldn't notice (or at least remark upon) anyone you usually saw at a particular time and place. In terms of policemen, I think it would be the policemen on fixed points who wouldn't be noticed; in fact it would probably be the absence of a policeman from one of the fixed points which would be remarked upon.

What about 'night soil'men?

[Bridewell]

Dog Collar

Would a UKer confirm that an Anglican minister/priest wears a collar like a Catholic priest?

Hi Rivkah,

If you mean something like this:-

the answer is yes. My late father was a Church of England priest. My brother still is.

[RivkahChaya]

And who questions a reverend hurrying through the streets at an odd hour?

Would a UKer confirm that an Anglican minister/priest wears a collar like a Catholic priest? Episcopalian priests do, so I'm assuming yes. Also, Episcopalians have Last Rites, so I'm assuming Church of England does as well.

I'm thinking trying to get to a dying person in time is why a priest might be out all hours-- although, someone usually has to go get them. It's on the return trip, not hurrying, when they'd be alone.

Errata, are you suggesting that JTR actually was a minister, or just dressed like one to get around at night? That sure does sound like one way not to get stopped and questioned by the police. If you have the collar on, the police won't suspect you, and probably will assume you'd come forward on your own if you'd witnessed something. "Hurrying," might even be a way to get the police not to stop you, if you are dressed like a minister/priest, whereas it would arouse suspicion if you weren't.

How often do you supposed people with clerical collars patronized prostitutes? I mean, I'm sure ministers did so, but I just feel somehow that they would remove the collar. Not that I suppose it would necessarily make a prostitute think anything like "He might be the Ripper," if they were approached by a man in one, even if it was odd.

[Errata]

There are a number of occupations that worked well into the night if not all night, and we have evidence of some of them. Slaughterhousemen...a built in apron for the bloody work....Dockers, and the Police of course. There are a number of occupations that would have wardrobes suited for the work, if not uniforms.

Best regards

And who questions a reverend hurrying through the streets at an odd hour?

[Michael W Richards]

So, thanks to the recent BBC series reminding me how brilliant the Father Brown stories are I have been listening to the Colonial Players adaptions on the drive too and from work, making a point of revisiting my personal favourite "The Invisible Man".

For those of you who have not read the stories (they are very affordable on Kindle, so go redeem yourselves pronto) or listened to their quirky radio adaptions the "Invisible" man is a postman who seems to slip into or around crimescenes where "nobody" was seen because those being questioned either did not register such a common site or did not consider a Postman to be who the detectives may mean when asked "did anybody come this way?" in the same way a lady will say she is staying alone, even if her butler and maids are with her (or at least according to Father Brown).

There of course has long been speculation that the Whitechappel murderer may well have been exactly such an anonymous or unnoticed soul, with several suggestions of who may or maynot slip outside of the notice of witnesses.

Not wishing to identify a suspect, but exactly which jobs or uniforms would act as such urban camoflague at the time of the murders? Who would avoid notice as being part of the background furniture around the crime scenes?

There are a number of occupations that worked well into the night if not all night, and we have evidence of some of them. Slaughterhousemen...a built in apron for the bloody work....Dockers, and the Police of course. There are a number of occupations that would have wardrobes suited for the work, if not uniforms.

Best regards

[RivkahChaya]

It's also entirely possible that if the population studies used a lot of people who had spent time institutionalized, in their experience, all food more or less did, literally, taste the same, although that probably wouldn't be the case if the question were being successfully used on intake exams, but I don't know that much about the history, I just know that a couple of people told me about the question being the one that tripped up fakers. I just thought it was an interesting point that as far as the reliability of the exam went, it didn't matter what the reason was.

A note on people who have been institutionalized: they are very bad at making comparisons and choices, sometimes, because they have had so little opportunity to do so. Personally, I think a lot of things that are called autistic behaviors, like sitting and rocking for hours, or self-injury, are things that were observed in people who had been institutionalized since childhood, and you don't see those very much in autistic people who lived at home their whole childhoods, and went to public school, even if they were in special programs, or to special schools that were non-residential.

[Errata]

No one has actually studied why schizophrenics overwhelmingly answer "Yes," to that question, because for the purposes of this particular test, it doesn't matter. It may be that schizophrenics overwhelmingly lie on that question. All that matters is the predictive reliability of the question, and because there is such a clear separation of groups there, it's on the test.

I was told that that any problem in the sensory cortex would span many senses. Schizophrenics often have issues processing sensory input of any kind. Not that they can't process it, but sometimes it takes longer, or gets a little jumbled, etc. There are aspects of schizophrenia that are very like synesthesia, and all of that is sensory cortex. It's also right up against the communication and memory parts of the brain. So any structural defects are going to cause problems in all of those areas. And those are three pretty common problems in Schizophrenics. Another issue is struggling with the ability to compare, which some schizophrenics have real trouble with. My friend cannot really communicate better or worse. If his symptoms are worse than they were last time, is this movie better than the last one. He can do concrete comparisons like more, less, nearer, farther, that kind of thing. But not abstracts like better, prettier, etc. And forget louder. Everything for him is too loud. I've never asked him about taste though.