Canonical or not.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Off the top of my head I believe Tom in The Bank holiday murders suggested that a sword stick was used to penetrate Emma's private parts. He also saw some evidence of perhaps a similar object being used on Martha with there being a pool of blood between her thighs.
Using an object like a knife etc on a woman's reproductive organs is called I believe piquerism . Tom saw evidence of this in both the early murders.
I believe the FBI profile said Jack was this sort of sadist were he would substitute a knife etc for his sexual organ.
Apologies if I have any of this wrong.
Regards Darryl

[The Baron]

And no, you have not read my book if you came away with the impression that the two killers are not one and the same.

That's what you get when a boxer write a book






The Baron

[caz]

Exactly my thought, Abby. She could've said she was accosted by a man, rather than inventing a gang attack. Weren't there groups like the "Old Nichol Gang" going around assaulting women?

The only caveat I would have here is that Emma Smith's assault happened several months before anyone knew there would be a rarer than rare lone wolf preying on women like her and inflicting horrific wounds.

When she was attacked, there had been nothing else like it, so claiming she was set about by a gang might have seemed preferable to admitting she had been singled out for attention by one depraved individual. Had it happened to her at the height of the ripper scare, when she was not the only one to have suffered such a dreadful indignity, she might have been more inclined to admit it if one man had done this to her.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

When you look at the locations of the attacks on Emma Smith and Martha Tabram, it can take your breath away to realise just how very close they are to each other.

And I don't think Emma's fate was very widely publicised prior to Martha's, was it?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fiver]

Phillips lived in a time when the concept of aggressive dismemberment was unheard of.

You statement is nonsensical. Dr George Baxter Philips was obviously familiar with the concept of "aggressive dismemberment" - he performed autopsies on some of the Ripper victims and some of the Torso Killer victims. And he believed they were different killers. At the Inquest for the Pinchin Street Torso he said:

"The CORONER. - I should like to ask Dr. Phillips whether there is any similarity in the cutting off of the legs in this case and the one that was severed from the woman in Dorset-street? Dr. Phillips. - I have not noticed any sufficient similarity to convince me it was the person who committed both mutilations, but the division of the neck and attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine are very similar to that which was effected in this case. The savagery shown by the mutilated remains in the Dorset-street case far exceeded that shown in this case. The mutilations in the Dorset-street case were most wanton, whereas in this case it strikes me that they were made for the purpose of disposing of the body. I wish to say that these are mere points that strike me without any comparative study of the other case, except those afforded by partial notes that I have with me. I think in this case there has been greater knowledge shown in regard to the construction of the parts composing the spine, and on the whole there has been a greater knowledge shown of how to separate a joint."

What should be pointed out here is that when Mary Kelly was killed, the division of the neck that was later made in the Pinchin Street case was something the perpetrator of that deed was not able to do.

That's a significant point in favor of the Ripper not being the Torso Killer. The Torso Killer had been successfully decapitating victims since 1873. The Ripper tried it once and failed.

The division of the neck was carried out by knife only in the Pinchin Street case, Beforehand, the killer had made efforts to cut the heads off by way of knofe in the Rainham case, in the Whitehall case and in the Jackson case, but he had failed to accomplish it. He had to go and get the saw to finish the work.

In the Rainham Case, the Whitehall Case, and the Jackson Case, the Torso killer had cut soft tissue of the victims' throats with a knife and then used a saw to sever the bone. The idea that a a murderer with 15 years in experience in severing heads would even try to use a knife for the whole job is ridiculous. The Mary Kelly killing was done by someone who had never tried to remove someone's head before.

It was only in September of 1889 that he finally managed to take ahead off by way of knife.

The Pinchin Street Torso was not decapitated using only a knife.

On 10th Sept. '89 the naked body, with arms, of a woman was found wrapped in some sacking under a Railway arch in Pinchin St: the head & legs were never found nor was the woman ever identified. She had been killed at least 24 hours before the remains, (which had seemingly been brought from a distance,) were discovered. The stomach was split up by a cut, and the head and legs had been severed in a manner identical with that of the woman whose remains were discovered in the Thames, in Battersea Park, & on the Chelsea Embankment on 4th June of the same year; and these murders had no connection whatever with the Whitechapel horrors. The Rainham mystery in 1887, & the Whitehall mystery (when portions of a woman's body were found under what is now New Scotland Yard) in 1888 were of a similar type to the Thames & Pinchin St crimes." - Melville Macnaghten

PS. Charles Hebbert also said that the two killers were not the same man, you may want to know that too. I have a reason for that too, of course, and we know that Hebbert muddled the cases very badly, but I thought that it would make you happy to hear. Anything helps, right?

Presumably you mean Doctor Charles Hibbert. Feel free to provide evidence that Hibbert "muddled the cases very badly".

So we have two police surgeons who examined the bodies of actual victims and concluded the Torso Killer and the Ripper were different men.

Weighed against that we have you - a man with so little knowledge of forensic pathology that he doesn't even know the difference between exsanguination and bleeding to death.

[Fisherman]

Presumably you mean Doctor Charles Hibbert.

This is all we will deal with today, Fiver. The reason is that it is a prime example of your way of doing Ripperology; you come out with an attitude regardless of how wrong you are. And you are wrong on many, many things.

As I have already hinted at, I am not going to encourage you by answering your posts in the future. This is an exception to the rule, and it owes to how you have very helpfully supplied further evidence of what I am saying about you.

Dr Charles Alfred Hebbert was the name of the physician you think was called Hibbert - and try to belittle me about. He was the son of John Benbow Hebbert and Lucy Julia Hebbert (born Astor). If you care to take a look Charles Hebberts "An Exercise in Forensic Medicine", you will see his name printed on it on this link:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...kson-whitehall

He is dead by now; born in 1856, he died a lonely death in Armidale in 1925. And that´s a pity, since it disenables you to correct him on the spelling of his own name.

Lesson to learn: Knowledge FIRST, attitude only AFTER.

And now, school´s out. Don´t expect me to read your posts anymore.

[MrBarnett]

When you look at the locations of the attacks on Emma Smith and Martha Tabram, it can take your breath away to realise just how very close they are to each other.

And I don't think Emma's fate was very widely publicised prior to Martha's, was it?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

You’re right, although it was widely reported on, the details of Smith’s attack were glossed over in the press. This report, which appeared in The Nottingham Evening Post on 5th April, 1888, is a typical example.




“SCUTTLING” IN WHITECHAPEL

A widow named Emma Elizabeth Smith, aged 45, of Spitalfields, was returning home late on Monday, and when in Whitechapel-road she was set upon and brutally maltreated by some men, at present unknown. She was taken to London Hospital where she died this morning from injuries received.



When I was researching the Tomkins family, that headline was something that stuck in my mind. Scuttling, as I’m sure you know, was an epidemic of gang warfare among working class youths in Manchester and elsewhere in the NW. The Tomkins family had only recently relocated from Manchester to Whitechapel (between Nov 1887 and April 1888 it seems) and the youngest of the three brothers was around 19 - the age of one of Smith’s attackers according to her. Just over a week later, their father, William, was discovered in an alcoholic coma near (possibly in) Harrison, Barber’s Winthrop Street knacker’s yard. He and two at least of his sons were horse slaughterers.

It seems the family had been exiled from Islington and relocated to Manchester after William had been caught pinching horse fat from John Harrison (the father of the founder of HB) in 1873, and they didn’t return to London until after John Harrison junior had left the business. They had relocated to Manchester when the scuttling craze was at its height and I can well imagine the two older boys Henry and Thomas had a hard time integrating. After a couple of decades in Manchester, during which time they had no doubt become properly Manc, they returned to London and became outsiders all over again.

I’ll stop there before I wander into ‘suspect’ territory.




Gary

[Harry D]

When you look at the locations of the attacks on Emma Smith and Martha Tabram, it can take your breath away to realise just how very close they are to each other.

And I don't think Emma's fate was very widely publicised prior to Martha's, was it?

Love,

Caz
X

I've always leaned towards Tabram being a non-canonical victim. I take into account the similarities and proximities to the other murders, but I don't see the same psychology present in the signature.

[MrBarnett]

I've always leaned towards Tabram being a non-canonical victim. I take into account the similarities and proximities to the other murders, but I don't see the same psychology present in the signature.

It’s a pity we don’t have a complete list of the wounds inflicted on Tabram. The lifting of her skirts is taken by some to have been necessitated by the desire to inflict the one (out of thirty nine) wound to her private parts. But bearing in mind that Victorian women wore very high-waisted skirts, the killer may have done so to facilitate the stabbing of her belly. He stabbed her all over her upper abdomen and neck in, I feel, a frantic effort to obliterate her before reaching for a second weapon to make sure she was dead. Lifting her skirts and making several stabs at her lower belly, injuries which because they did not damage a major organ, were not recorded by Dr Killeen, would seem to align with the numerous stabs to her neck and upper torso.

[MrBarnett]

My take on Tabram’s killing is that it bears a strong resemblance to the attack on a woman by a blind pedlar of laces near Spitalfields market on the morning of the Chapman murder. And that’s without considering the fact that Pearly Poll would later marry a vicious, mentally unstable blind pedlar of laces.

[Harry D]

It’s a pity we don’t have a complete list of the wounds inflicted on Tabram. The lifting of her skirts is taken by some to have been necessitated by the desire to inflict the one (out of thirty nine) wound to her private parts. But bearing in mind that Victorian women wore very high-waisted skirts, the killer may have done so to facilitate the stabbing of her belly. He stabbed her all over her upper abdomen and neck in, I feel, a frantic effort to obliterate her before reaching for a second weapon to make sure she was dead. Lifting her skirts and making several stabs at her lower belly, injuries which because they did not damage a major organ, were not recorded by Dr Killeen, would seem to align with the numerous stabs to her neck and upper torso.

The problem is we never see that kind of frenzy evident in the other Whitechapel murders.

It is hard to believe that the same killer went from furious stabbing to methodical slicing within a few weeks. I've read several attempts to rationalize this switcheroo but I'm not sold on it.

[Fiver]

This is all we will deal with today, Fiver. The reason is that it is a prime example of your way of doing Ripperology; you come out with an attitude regardless of how wrong you are. And you are wrong on many, many things.

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

I wanted confirmation that the Doctor Hebbert you referred to was the Doctor Charles Hibbert referred to in the Casebook. Instead you get all condescending, while dodging my actual points.

Dr Charles Alfred Hebbert was the name of the physician you think was called Hibbert - and try to belittle me about. He was the son of John Benbow Hebbert and Lucy Julia Hebbert (born Astor). If you care to take a look Charles Hebberts "An Exercise in Forensic Medicine", you will see his name printed on it on this link:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...kson-whitehall

Perhaps you should take the Casebook to task on the spelling of the name.

"Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly."

"Mr. Charles Alfred Hibbert, assistant to Mr. Bond, deposed:I examined the arm on Sept. 16. It was a right arm, and had been separated from the shoulder joint. It measured 31in in length and was 13in in circumference at the point of separation, the wrist being 6½in round, and the hand 7½in long."

Thanks for the link, though.

And if you're willing to stop dodging the question, feel free to explain why we should discount the opinions of Doctor Charles Alfred Hebbert and Dr George Baxter Philips when they concluded the Torso Killer and the Ripper were different men. Unlike you, they were trained medical men who engaged in forensic medicine and actually saw the bodies.

[Abby Normal]

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

I wanted confirmation that the Doctor Hebbert you referred to was the Doctor Charles Hibbert referred to in the Casebook. Instead you get all condescending, while dodging my actual points.



Perhaps you should take the Casebook to task on the spelling of the name.

"Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly."

"Mr. Charles Alfred Hibbert, assistant to Mr. Bond, deposed:I examined the arm on Sept. 16. It was a right arm, and had been separated from the shoulder joint. It measured 31in in length and was 13in in circumference at the point of separation, the wrist being 6½in round, and the hand 7½in long."

Thanks for the link, though.

And if you're willing to stop dodging the question, feel free to explain why we should discount the opinions of Doctor Charles Alfred Hebbert and Dr George Baxter Philips when they concluded the Torso Killer and the Ripper were different men. Unlike you, they were trained medical men who engaged in forensic medicine and actually saw the bodies.

hi fiver
i dont think back then they were familiar with the type of serial killer who dismembered for pleasure, only those killers who did it in aid of disposal. my personal opinion is that torso man did it for both reasons.

[MrBarnett]

The problem is we never see that kind of frenzy evident in the other Whitechapel murders.

It is hard to believe that the same killer went from furious stabbing to methodical slicing within a few weeks. I've read several attempts to rationalize this switcheroo but I'm not sold on it.

I’m with you there, H.

[Abby Normal]

The problem is we never see that kind of frenzy evident in the other Whitechapel murders.

It is hard to believe that the same killer went from furious stabbing to methodical slicing within a few weeks. I've read several attempts to rationalize this switcheroo but I'm not sold on it.

hi harry
i see your point, but what if it was his trigger kill? or how about escalation from millwood to tabram to nichols as the serial killer refines his technique and perfects his sick fantasy.

lifed skirt, cut to the privates, evidence of strangulation, prostitute, same time and place, unsolved. its a ripper murder.