Canonical or not.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Gary,

A couple things make me lean towards that view.

First, there's the timing of these two murders. Tabram 3 weeks before Nichols, which is in line with the C5, and McKenzie over 7 months after Kelly. And then, an attack like the one on Tabram doesn't seem so off, so shortly before the series commencing with Nichols, while the one on McKenzie does seem too off to me. She was stabbed in the throat rather than cut and the abdominal wounds were far less than even the ones received by Nichols. Of course, I don't rule anything or anybody out (even if I might not see some victim as a Ripper victim), but that's the way I see things.

The best,
Frank

hi frank-solid reasoning. But both tabram and mckenzie had there skirts hiked up, like the others, to reveal the rippers main target-the privates/abdoman. Thats the final straw for me.

[caz]

Hi All,

I find it difficult to believe that this serial killer's victims would have numbered just four or five, and that he had no botched or abandoned attempts before, since or in between.

I tend to include Tabram, partly because her injuries, and later the mutilation murder of Mary Kelly, are very similar in nature to Robert Napper's murder of Rachel Nickell in 1992 - outdoors, 49 stab wounds - and his indoor mutilation murder of Samantha Bisset in 1993.

If pressed I would probably add in Mylett, McKenzie and Coles, and possibly even Emma Smith, as an early display of this man's predatory nature and depravity.

Such attacks on street women were otherwise vanishingly rare, even in that deprived neighbourhood, at a time when it was possible for violent criminals to vanish into the night and leave no useful forensic clues about their identity.

I do wonder what 21st century authorities would make of the same Whitechapel series of crimes if they happened today, and which victims the police would consider to be potentially linked.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

I find Ada Wilson and especially Annie Millwood very interesting as possible early attacks.[/FONT][/FONT]

The best,
Frank

Personally, I think the first attack we can be reasonably certain was the Rippers work took place in 1872. So I tend not to take too much interest in Wilson and Milwood - unless they were fledgling attempts to move his "office" from a bolthole to the streets, followed up on by Tabram in August.

[Fisherman]

Hi All,

I find it difficult to believe that this serial killer's victims would have numbered just four or five, and that he had no botched or abandoned attempts before, since or in between.

I tend to include Tabram, partly because her injuries, and later the mutilation murder of Mary Kelly, are very similar in nature to Robert Napper's murder of Rachel Nickell in 1992 - outdoors, 49 stab wounds - and his indoor mutilation murder of Samantha Bisset in 1993.

If pressed I would probably add in Mylett, McKenzie and Coles, and possibly even Emma Smith, as an early display of this man's predatory nature and depravity.

Such attacks on street women were otherwise vanishingly rare, even in that deprived neighbourhood, at a time when it was possible for violent criminals to vanish into the night and leave no useful forensic clues about their identity.

I do wonder what 21st century authorities would make of the same Whitechapel series of crimes if they happened today, and which victims the police would consider to be potentially linked.

Love,

Caz
X

Sound reasoning there, Caz; always keep it simple and avoid introducing too many serialists with an interest in cutting people open and getting at the innards. As for what todays police would have included, I am certain that they would have ruled the torso series in. No doubt in my mind about that whatsoever.

[AlanG]

Hi All,

I find it difficult to believe that this serial killer's victims would have numbered just four or five, and that he had no botched or abandoned attempts before, since or in between.

I tend to include Tabram, partly because her injuries, and later the mutilation murder of Mary Kelly, are very similar in nature to Robert Napper's murder of Rachel Nickell in 1992 - outdoors, 49 stab wounds - and his indoor mutilation murder of Samantha Bisset in 1993.

If pressed I would probably add in Mylett, McKenzie and Coles, and possibly even Emma Smith, as an early display of this man's predatory nature and depravity.

Such attacks on street women were otherwise vanishingly rare, even in that deprived neighbourhood, at a time when it was possible for violent criminals to vanish into the night and leave no useful forensic clues about their identity.

I do wonder what 21st century authorities would make of the same Whitechapel series of crimes if they happened today, and which victims the police would consider to be potentially linked.

Love,

Caz
X

Agreed.

[Columbo]

Personally, I think the first attack we can be reasonably certain was the Rippers work took place in 1872. So I tend not to take too much interest in Wilson and Milwood - unless they were fledgling attempts to move his "office" from a bolthole to the streets, followed up on by Tabram in August.

No there is no certainty at all. that's what you believe and you're trying to include this Cross/Lechmere theory of yours into this thread. Let's try to stay on the topic at hand. Very tiresome.

[Michael W Richards]

Can anyone name a genuine copycat killer ? The term is thrown around but does it ever really happen ?

I dont have a single name offhand, but there are arguments that could be made for killers to have been influenced by other murders and then incorporate hitherto unseen acts in their own future murders. Like the time the US had a plethora of serial killers working simultaneously and they followed the progress and acts of the others in the news. In 1976 and 1977 no less than 5 serial killers worked the USA.....(and some people here think its impossible to have just one other serial killer working at the same time as Jack), and some of those killers expressed that they were influenced by other murders and murderers.

The term CopyCat isnt really meant to insinuate replicating exactly, its a new killer using methods, techniques or principles because they were influenced by what they read, heard or saw in prior murders by other killers.

In terms of the Canonical Group, a murder like Kates could well be something of that ilk. Some of the same things we have seen in priors, but with less skill and knowledge...according to the physician who saw the 3 prior Canonicals in death. Did Kates killer intend to take Kates kidney before killing her? There is no clear indication that he was compelled by that idea...but there are indications that whomever took Annies uterus desired that specific organ and made specific cuts that enabled that act. Which suggests he had that objective in mind before he killed her.

Its one reason why people have suggested Kates removal of her kidney was a slash and grab, and he need not have any specific knowledge or knife skill to do what he did.

[John Wheat]

Personally, I think the first attack we can be reasonably certain was the Rippers work took place in 1872. So I tend not to take too much interest in Wilson and Milwood - unless they were fledgling attempts to move his "office" from a bolthole to the streets, followed up on by Tabram in August.

Wasn't the First Torso Murder committed in 1873 or is there another murder your including before that?

[Aethelwulf]

I'm of the opinion that if the C5 didn't exist and you were left with Millwood-Wilson-Tabram, and all the same suspects, Bury and his penknife would be in the hotseat for those three, certainly Wilson (see my other post about bury). So that's Millwood-Wilson-Tabram, C5, Ellen Bury (9). The use of a ligature on Mylett makes me think Bury might just have done that and been disturbed - disturbed because she was found with cash on her. Bury was a confirmed thief and I bet the last thing he did at a crime scene was empty pockets looking for cash and take jewellery (e.g. rings off fingers). Bury would have taken the cash from Mylett unless disturbed.

[Fiver]

My victim list is:
* Annie Millwood - possibly
* Martha Tabram - probably
* Polly Nichols - definitely
* Annie Chapman - definitely
* Elizabeth Stride - probably
* Catherine Eddowes - definitely
* Mary Jane Kelly - probably
* Alice McKenzie - possibly

[drstrange169]

I'd have a similar victim summation list.

[Abby Normal]

My victim list is:
* Annie Millwood - possibly
* Martha Tabram - probably
* Polly Nichols - definitely
* Annie Chapman - definitely
* Elizabeth Stride - probably
* Catherine Eddowes - definitely
* Mary Jane Kelly - probably
* Alice McKenzie - possibly

yup. good list. i have the same although i have the c5 as definite, and millwood, tabram and mckenzie as very probably.

[Fisherman]

Wasn't the First Torso Murder committed in 1873 or is there another murder your including before that?

Right you are. My bad. They shoud not have placed the digit 2 beside the digit 3 on the keyboard.

[Fisherman]

I fail to understand why people would list Chapman as definitely but Kelly as probably. Of course, itīs those flaps again. Would TWO killers in the same area engage in eviscerations AND cut away the abdominal wall in large sections? I answer the first question with definitely not and the second with even more definitely not, although it involves some linguistic wrestling ...

[FrankO]

hi frank-solid reasoning. But both tabram and mckenzie had there skirts hiked up, like the others, to reveal the rippers main target-the privates/abdoman. Thats the final straw for me.

Thanks, Abby. Yes, both had their skirts raised, revealing the Ripper's main zone of interest. But the thing - for me, anyway - with McKenzie is that she wasn't opened up and I feel that the time used to inflict the wounds that were found on her would have been enough to make one cut that would have opened her abdomen. Taken together with the points I mentioned in my previous post, I lean towards her not being a Ripper victim. But, of course, anybody has to make their own call(s) and I wouldn't be too surprised if it would ever turn out that she was.