Horse Meat Dealers

[MrBarnett]

“CAT’S MEAT MAN’S PRIDE

Asked at the Southwark County Court yesterday, his occupation, a man replied, “A horse meat salesman.” - Judge Addison: I suppose you mean a cat’s meat man, but think the other sounds better. Horses, however, do not eat meat.”

Daily News 26th January, 1903


There are numerous examples of this kind of thing.

Unless there were no cats meat shops in London, or not a single cats meat shop owner felt it necessary to advertise his business in the Post Office Directory, we should assume that the majority listed as ‘Horse Meat Salesmen’ in the directory ran cats meat shops.

Is it impossible that Ma Lechmere was the exception to the rule and produced her own cats meat from raw horseflesh containing bones? No. Is it extremely unlikely, so much so that we can effectively dismiss the possibility? I’d say so, but possibly Christer’s research has uncovered evidence that I have missed.

[MrBarnett]

180 tons of cooked and boned cats meat was produced for the London market each week - that’s about 400,000 lbs.

Clearly that’s how the trade worked. The cats meat hawkers/shop owners bought the cooked and boned flesh either directly from the knacker’s (only Harrison, Barber in London) or from one of the wholesalers who imported their stock from the provinces. HB themselves also brought in provincial meat.

But Ma Lechmere bucked the trend - she obtained raw horseflesh and boned and boiled it herself in the Ratcliff Highway. What she did with the bones is a mystery.

And the evidence that Ma - or anyone else in London - was carrying out this kind of illicit activity? It doesn’t exist as far as I’m aware.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s the Stepney Medical For Health describing the trade in horseflesh.

“Dr Thomas states that the bulk of horseflesh sold in London comes from the country, but from sixty to seventy tons a week are produced by a firm of knackers in London itself. With the exception of three firms, the trade is in the hands of East-end purveyors who import seventy-give to eighty tons per week and sell it to the various cats meat shops in London. The meat is boned and boiled before being sent by rail.

Witney Gazette 11th June, 1910

[Abby Normal]

There’s no evidence that she was before the 1890s.

I think between 1888 and 1891 she had three addresses: 1, Mary Ann Street, 147, Cable Street and 19, St George Street. I believe the earliest ref. to her running a cat’s meat (horse meat) business is in 1891 in St George Street.

The mystery address is 139, Cable Street, which doesn’t appear on Joseph Forsdike’s 1889 death cert, but does appear in the burial records. The 1891 census recorded that as an empty premises.

thanks!

[MrBarnett]

was ma lech running a cats meat shop put of her home at the time of the ripper murders?

There’s no evidence that she was before the 1890s.

I think between 1888 and 1891 she had three addresses: 1, Mary Ann Street, 147, Cable Street and 19, St George Street. I believe the earliest ref. to her running a cat’s meat (horse meat) business is in 1891 in St George Street.

The mystery address is 139, Cable Street, which doesn’t appear on Joseph Forsdike’s 1889 death cert, but does appear in the burial records. The 1891 census recorded that as an empty premises.

[Abby Normal]

was ma lech running a cats meat shop put of her home at the time of the ripper murders?

[MrBarnett]

Do you know if the shop was at her home address, or elsewhere? Only there's a mention of a catsmeat shop being on the corner of Cable Street and Backchurch Lane at the time that the Pinchin St torso was discovered in '89, not 50 yards from the archway.

We can’t be sure, but most likely she lived where she worked. In 1891, she was living at 19, St George Street, which was a shop, but in 1895 her business was listed at no. 47. When Joseph Forsdyke died in 1889, two addresses were recorded: 147, Cable Street appeared on his death cert and no. 139 on his burial records.

Rather curiously, in April, 1889 Joseph was admitted to the St George’s workhouse from the infirmary and was said to be destitute. He was released on his own request on the same day.

Some time ago over on JTRF we tried to identify the cats meat shop on the corner of Cable Street and Backchurch Lane but failed.

[Joshua Rogan]

Don’t be fooled by Ma Lechmere being listed as a Horse Meat salesman alongside the likes of HB, Currell and Harrison who were in the wholesale business. She had a small shop from which she sold pet food.

Do you know if the shop was at her home address, or elsewhere? Only there's a mention of a catsmeat shop being on the corner of Cable Street and Backchurch Lane at the time that the Pinchin St torso was discovered in '89, not 50 yards from the archway.

[MrBarnett]

Cat’s Meat Men were figures of fun in Victorian society, the butt of jokes and songs. Little wonder then that they preferred alternative descriptions. Horseflesh/horsemeat dealer/salesman were preferred monikers.

Jack Atcheler, the legendary Islington knacker, once described himself in court as the ‘purveyor of comestibles to Her Majesty’s canine race’ And on another occasion when a Cat’s Meat man announced that he was a ‘domestic pet’s butcher’ the magistrate asked why he didn’t call himself a ‘feline restaurateur’.

Don’t be fooled by Ma Lechmere being listed as a Horse Meat salesman alongside the likes of HB, Currell and Harrison who were in the wholesale business. She had a small shop from which she sold pet food.

“What I tell you three times must be true!” LOL

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

z0mg

Are you seriously suggesting that Charles LeCross was NOT subjected to the desentizising experiences reported by some 21st century slaughterhouse workers engaged in killing live animals, since he was a 19th century carman NOT engaged in killing animals or handling carcasses, and therefore might NOT have been a psychopath????

it's almost as if you think that his mother's occupation three years after the murders has no bearing on his status as prime suspect!!!

Please stop making sense or I'll have to report this thread

Now that's sarcasm!

[MrBarnett]

The 1891 census recorded Maria Louisa Forsdike living at 18, St George Street. That was a small shop on the corner of Artichoke Hill. It’s unclear from maps whether the shop had a yard, but there was a small open area behind it.

I don’t have a photo of the shop to hand, but this great photo showing the shops on either corner of John’s Hill (the next ‘Hill’ along) and St George Street gives an idea of the size of the shop on the corner of Artichoke Hill.

Are we to believe that Lechmere’s 65-year-old mother was carrying on a ‘noxious’ trade in a tiny shop next door to a pub - and no-one complained about the smell?

Cutting cooked horseflesh into cubes and selling it in small quantities to pet owners makes perfect sense - butchering horse carcasses, boiling up the flesh and somehow disposing of the bones doesn’t.

The logical conclusion is that Ma ran a retail cat’s meat shop and obtained her product on a daily basis from either Harrison, Barber or one of the two or three independent wholesale horseflesh dealers nearby.

[MrBarnett]

Apologies for the further diversion, but this photo of High Street, Romford shows a large woman (I think?) looking a bit like Ronnie Barker driving a cart a few yards from Matilda Palmer’s home.

The pub sign in the distance on the right is where another Matilda - Crossingham - celebrated her wedding. (White Hart pub)

I should add that the cart with its backward slope looks very much like the typical knacker’s cart.

[MrBarnett]

‘Rough butcher.’

I found this some time ago. It refers to a firm of Romford knackers that a cousin of mine once worked for. The family/local connection is of interest as is the fact that around the turn of the century the firm was run by a woman - Matilda Palmer. I’m not sure if she ever wielded the pole axe herself, but she’s recorded as a horse slaughterer.

The relevance to this thread is that my understanding of the job of a knacker doesn’t involve the careful dismembering of horse carcasses. The flesh was roughly hacked off the bones, it was then put into one boiler and the bones were roughly smashed up and put into another. When the bones, having given up their valuable oils, were removed from the boiler they were crushed into a powder which was used as fertiliser. This is a VERY different process from that of a butcher preparing meat for the table with neatly trimmed/jointed bones.

[MrBarnett]

z0mg

Are you seriously suggesting that Charles LeCross was NOT subjected to the desentizising experiences reported by some 21st century slaughterhouse workers engaged in killing live animals, since he was a 19th century carman NOT engaged in killing animals or handling carcasses, and therefore might NOT have been a psychopath????

it's almost as if you think that his mother's occupation three years after the murders has no bearing on his status as prime suspect!!!

Please stop making sense or I'll have to report this thread

Don’t forget the anecdotal evidence that Lechmere’s descendants used to butcher horse carcasses in their back garden in the 1930s. That puts a spanner in my theory.

[Kattrup]

z0mg

Are you seriously suggesting that Charles LeCross was NOT subjected to the desentizising experiences reported by some 21st century slaughterhouse workers engaged in killing live animals, since he was a 19th century carman NOT engaged in killing animals or handling carcasses, and therefore might NOT have been a psychopath????

it's almost as if you think that his mother's occupation three years after the murders has no bearing on his status as prime suspect!!!

Please stop making sense or I'll have to report this thread