Other attacks : man wearing deerstalker hat

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It seems quite clear that other than Marshall's couple, there were two couples on or very near Berner street, within half an hour of the murder.

The first couple was the Commercial-road/Berner-street couple. They:

• meet on Commercial Road, at the top of Berner street (the woman lived on Berner street)
• go for a walk along Comm. Rd.
• walk up and down Berner street
• just before departing when back on Comm. Rd., see a man walking West (in the direction of Aldgate).

Their period together is stated by the Echo as 12:00-12:30.

The second couple was the Board School corner couple. They stood at the Berner/Fairclough street intersection for about 20 minutes, in the period leading up to and just after the murder. Fanny's reference to "...the time the woman must have been murdered...", suggests the couple were alerted to the situation, not long after the body was discovered.
As the discovery was not prior to 12:30, it seems clear this must have been a different couple to the Cr/Bs couple.
The BSC couple was probably James Brown's couple, who stood against the wall of the Board school.
However, Brown seemed sure the woman was the deceased...

I live at 35, Fairclough-street. I saw the deceased about a quarter to 1 on Sunday morning. At that time I was going from my house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street. They were standing against the wall. As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them. I am certain the woman was the deceased. I did not notice any flowers in her dress. The man had his arm up against the wall, and the woman had her back to the wall facing him. I noticed the man had a long coat on, which came very nearly down to his heels. I believe it was an overcoat. I could not say what kind of cap he had on. The place where they were standing was rather dark. I saw nothing light in colour about either of them. I then went on and went indoors.

It was probably someone who looked a lot like Liz Stride. Perhaps it was Mary Malcolm?

[Craig H]

So the Commercial Rd- Berner Street couple could be the sweetheart couple Wicker Man mentioned ??

And the James Brown sighting was unlikely to be the same man as PC Smith saw as Brown’s man’s coat was long (down to the ground) and the woman had no flower.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So the Commercial Rd- Berner Street couple could be the sweetheart couple Wicker Man mentioned ??

The Cr/Bs couple are sweethearts...

The Echo: From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

The BSC couple are also sweethearts...

Daily News: A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

Berner street was not a prostitute area - it was lovers area.
Consider Stride with her red rose. Did Liz love Lave?

And the James Brown sighting was unlikely to be the same man as PC Smith saw as Brown’s man’s coat was long (down to the ground) and the woman had no flower.

Probably, but you seem to be putting a lot of faith in eyewitness testimony.
Visualizing this, I think that any flower would have been obscured by the man...

JB: As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them. I am certain the woman was the deceased. I did not notice any flowers in her dress. The man had his arm up against the wall, and the woman had her back to the wall facing him.

[Craig H]

Interesting... I wasn’t aware Berner Street was a lover’s spot, not for prostitutes.

I don’t know the Whitechapel area and struggling to get my head around locations.

have you seen an old map from 1888 which pinpoints the different locations of these people ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Have a look a the photo in the post - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...193#post498193

That's Berner street, obviously.
The intersection is with Fairclough street.
On the left of picture is the board school.
There is a brick wall around the school - that is the wall the 2nd couple stood against, but they were just around the corner into Fairclough street (according to Brown).
The 1st (earlier) couple walked up and down Berner.

Who else was there, for who no record survives?

You might want to look at #139 and the pics starting at - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...247#post498247

[Craig H]

Thanks for this

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No problem. So here's one for you...

In #46 I quoted James Brown. Here is the remainder of that quote, from the Times:

I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in. I do not think it was raining at the time. I should say the man was about 5ft. 7in. in height. He appeared to be stoutish built. Both the man and woman appeared to be sober. I did not notice any foreign accent about the woman's voice. When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

Who was screaming "Police" and "Murder"?
Who is the policeman Brown saw standing on the corner of Christian street?
Who was the man who called to the constable?
Why only then did the PC run to Berner street?

There is some context in this post - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...807#post743807

[Wickerman]

So the Commercial Rd- Berner Street couple could be the sweetheart couple Wicker Man mentioned ??

And the James Brown sighting was unlikely to be the same man as PC Smith saw as Brown’s man’s coat was long (down to the ground) and the woman had no flower.

Which is partially why we can't always trust every witness saw Stride, both Marshall & Brown claim it was Stride, but both can't be right.
If we go by their own words - what their respective couples did & looked like, then we seem to be on more reliable ground.

[Wickerman]

No problem. So here's one for you...

In #46 I quoted James Brown. Here is the remainder of that quote, from the Times:

I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder." That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in. I do not think it was raining at the time. I should say the man was about 5ft. 7in. in height. He appeared to be stoutish built. Both the man and woman appeared to be sober. I did not notice any foreign accent about the woman's voice. When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

Who was screaming "Police" and "Murder"?
Who is the policeman Brown saw standing on the corner of Christian street?
Who was the man who called to the constable?
Why only then did the PC run to Berner street?

- I've always taken it as Diemschitz & Kozebrodski who ran along Fairclough St. shouting for "police".
- I think you have established the policeman seen by Brown was PC Collins.
- It wasn't Heshburg, Spooner or Brown.
- Well, we can't imply he hesitated for long, the constable was possibly looking east towards where the shouts were coming from, whereas the man might have pointed west, towards Berner st., which is why the constable now set off to run?

There is some context in this post - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...807#post743807

The above link is a very well put together post - well done.

[C. F. Leon]

Nowadays, just because someone is wearing a baseball cap doesn't mean that they PLAY baseball, or are even going to a game. Maybe the deerstalker was what was available at Goodwill or what he found in a dumpster (or could steal).

[Wickerman]

The Cr/Bs couple are sweethearts...

The Echo: From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

The BSC couple are also sweethearts...

Daily News: A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

I wouldn't discount both the above from being the same couple, especially if the timing is flexible, but neither appear to be the couple seen by Marshall which means potentially three couples in the vicinity between 11:45 - 12:45 besides Stride, and her companion.

Probably, but you seem to be putting a lot of faith in eyewitness testimony.
Visualizing this, I think that any flower would have been obscured by the man...

Certainly we can all think of reason's why the flower may have been there but not visible to either Brown or Marshall. It's just that we shouldn't do that (imo) unless the witness says "it could have been there, but just obscured from view", otherwise we end up looking desperate to support some personal theory as opposed to taking the evidence as given.

[Wickerman]

Nowadays, just because someone is wearing a baseball cap doesn't mean that they PLAY baseball, or are even going to a game. Maybe the deerstalker was what was available at Goodwill or what he found in a dumpster (or could steal).

Certainly, but this was Victorian London.
Although destitute women wore men's boots, and some destitute men wore shabby top hats, clearly both dressing out of their class or status in life. For the most part people were expected to dress according to their class & status in life. A banker would never down-dress to look like a clerk, and a doctor would never dress like a banker, and a coal man could never dress like a lawyer. This is why we see such questions in the inquest expecting the witness to describe what type of person they had seen; a sailor, a clerk, or a manual worker, etc.

[erobitha]

The reference to "weak eyes" is inetresting.

For if the reference is to the medical condition known as Madarosis, one of the symptoms is alternating between dryness and watery eyes and can be caused by syphillis.

In August / September 1888, one suspect on this forum did have problems with "watery eyes". We know this because of a letter his friend wrote to the Home Office in August 1889. The writer of the letter was Gustav Witt.

The suspect is James Maybrick.

Just another coincidence I'm sure.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

- I've always taken it as Diemschitz & Kozebrodski who ran along Fairclough St. shouting for "police".
- I think you have established the policeman seen by Brown was PC Collins.
- It wasn't Heshburg, Spooner or Brown.
- Well, we can't imply he hesitated for long, the constable was possibly looking east towards where the shouts were coming from, whereas the man might have pointed west, towards Berner st., which is why the constable now set off to run?

For the sake of this argument, it doesn't matter so much what combination of Diemschitz, Kozebrodsky or some other member of the club is said to be the two who ran up to Grove street and back. Let's just call the pair; Search Party 1
Brown hears this what could be presumed to be SP1, opens his window but sees no one, and then the screams apparently cease.
All fine up to now, but then he says - Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street.
I would have thought he would have seen Spooner and lady friend, if anyone.
So how much time is represented by 'shortly afterwards'?
For the man Brown sees on the corner to have been a policeman, and therefore probably Collins, he must be talking about a few minutes later, but the quote does not sound like he means a few minutes - more like a few seconds. So that's very odd.
However, if we take him to mean a few minutes has elapsed at the point he sees the PC, then a few questions arise...

Firstly, if Collins has heard Lamb's whistling, why is he standing on the corner, and not proceeding to Berner street? You say he might have been looking east, towards the shouts, before the man points him in the right direction. So who is shouting up on Grove street?
If we call Eagle & Kozebrodski's search on Commercial Road, Search Party 2, these shouts must come from SP3.
Yet we never hear of an SP3, and why would there be a third search party tracing exactly the same route as SP1, which had failed to find police?
Secondly, why would SP3 run right past a PC on the corner, and why would the PC not stop them and ask questions? Did they just miss each other?
Thirdly, who is this man telling the constable he is wanted? Is he SP4? How does he know there is an issue at DY, but not the PC?
Fourthly, by the time we get to a possible SP4, how can Lamb and 426H not be at DY, and therefore why would there be a need to continue sending out search parties?

None of this makes any sense, and that is before we get to Spooner saying:

I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.

The phrase 'He came running after me' implies that Mr Harris came from a direction to the east of Spooner, standing on the corner at Fairclough and Christian streets. That is quite a long way from Lamb and his whistle at DY, yet Spooner did not meet anyone other than Mr Harris, when hastening to Berner street. Mr Harris must have had particularly good ears. At least Heshburg was in the same street when he hears a whistle.

All this is very strange, and I think we should consider the following a possibility...

The man that Brown saw on the corner, and thought was a policeman, was actually someone from the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee.
That man is out patrolling the streets. He is probably dressed in black, and probably has a whistle. His name is probably Edward Spooner.
Spooner appears to either know or know of Mr Harris. As far as I know, there were three Mr Harris's in the WVC.

I wouldn't mind betting that following points are also true...

Abraham Heshburg is WVC. Heshburg's knowledge of the club, victim and the discovery, is so detailed that it's obvious to me what he is; a spy.
Joseph Koster is WVC. The tale of Koster being alerted to the victim, was an attempt by the WVC to take credit for the discovery, which Heshburg later walked back.

Then there is the involvement of Grand and Batchelor to consider.
There is more going on that night than just the simple story of Diemschitz disturbing the killer.

The above link is a very well put together post - well done.

Thanks!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wouldn't discount both the above from being the same couple, especially if the timing is flexible, but neither appear to be the couple seen by Marshall which means potentially three couples in the vicinity between 11:45 - 12:45 besides Stride, and her companion.

Yes, I think there were three couples in that period.

Certainly we can all think of reason's why the flower may have been there but not visible to either Brown or Marshall. It's just that we shouldn't do that (imo) unless the witness says "it could have been there, but just obscured from view", otherwise we end up looking desperate to support some personal theory as opposed to taking the evidence as given.

Just to be clear, I don't think the woman was Stride myself, but if I did, that is the argument I would be using.
Also, we should remember what Brown said...

I am almost certain it was the deceased.