Other attacks : man wearing deerstalker hat

[jerryd]

Found this in a search for "Deerstalker Hat" and thought it was interesting.

Echo
June 7, 1888

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Yes, it must have been a terrifying time for a woman to be on the streets on her own.

I do think JTR had some people skills and was able to put his victims at ease.

Hope you're well during these surreal times

All the best, Craig

Hi Craig,

Many thanks, I'm keeping well and hope you are too. May 2021 be a lot less surreal for everyone!

I do think the killer of Eddowes must have been able to put her at ease, assuming she willingly accompanied him to that dark corner of Mitre Square. She may have been less on her guard than other women in her shoes at the time, as she had been away hop picking and remote from the horrors of the previous few weeks. She may have got the false impression of a fiendish character with two heads - and two deerstalkers - who would be incapable of engaging normally with any woman.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

She may have got the false impression of a fiendish character with two heads - and two deerstalkers - who would be incapable of engaging normally with any woman.

Given that a deerstalker has two peaks, perhaps he just had two faces?

[caz]

Nice one, Joshua.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I thought “whiskers” back then meant what we call sideburns. Therefore someone could have a moustache but not whiskers,

The billycock vs felt hat vs deerstalker is an interesting question. I think Wicker Man covered this well earlier in thread.

I’ll look at your other points later tonight.

Craig

Yes, I too thought whiskers referred to sideburns rather than a moustache. Witnesses and police would have been aware of the difference, I think. I also wonder if "no whiskers" or even "clean shaven" could have referred to a man with no beard or sideburns, who could still have had a moustache.

This is all very interesting, Craig, because we wouldn't expect eye witness descriptions of the same man to be identical, any more than we should expect anyone to take careful note of the time, when nothing suspicious is going on. If you're used to passing a shop's clock, or church clock, on a routine journey, or you're a copper on his beat, that would be a different matter, and the time would always then be a natural thing to know.

Weak eyes and an awkward gait are strong indicators of the same man being described, being features more likely to stand out than generic dark clothing or even hats, which nearly everyone wore and would be more forgettable.

Another recurring feature seems to be a blotchy or red complexion and ginger whiskers.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

I thought “whiskers” back then meant what we call sideburns. Therefore someone could have a moustache but not whiskers,.....

Correct, whiskers are extended sideburns below the ear.
It seems to be a common problem when some confuse a cat's whiskers with a man's moustache.
There are enough examples of suspect descriptions where a man was said to have a moustache but no whiskers, or clean shaven with whiskers, etc.

[Wickerman]

Jon, thanks for your interesting ideas. Ill try and summarise the scenario. Interested in others feedback.

The hypothesis is that Stride was with the same man from 11 pm to 1 am when she was killed.
Three credible witnesses who saw her were:
PC Smith (12:30 pm): saw the couple in Berner Street on Settles street (north of Commercial Road and almost opposite Berner Street) "I saw her face and I think the body at the mortuary is that of the same woman"
William Marshall (11:45 pm): saw the couple at 58 Berner Street (between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street) He recognised her and said she had a black jacket and skirt, and a black bonnet.
Best and Gardiner (11 pm) : saw the couple at the Bricklayers Arms "I have been to the mortuary and am almost certain the woman there is the one we saw at the Bricklayers Arms"
Strides body was found at 1.00 a.m. This suggests PC Smith saw her just before she was killed. While it is possible Stride separated from the man Smith described, and was attacked by another man, the short time frame makes this unlikely.

If you follow the statement's of Mrs Mortimer, and do a Search on "sweetheart" you'll see there was another couple standing in Berner St. right around the time of the murder. I think these are the couple seen by William Marshall.

The other witness typically left out by everyone, is Packer.
Because Packer had shown uncertainty as to when he saw his suspect (& Stride), whether it was between 11:00-11:30, or 12:00-12:30 roughly, he was of no help to police.
Yet, the police must have known that Stride was at the Bricklayer's Arms at 11:00 pm, so that would mean Packer's correct time was the 12:00-12:30 scenario. Which then becomes consistent with the sighting by PC Smith.

The solution to explain what the newspaper parcel was, is then provided by Packer, it was the parcel of grapes, which it had to be regardless of the estimated size (18x8), which is just far too big.
The fact remains, both Smith and Packer place Stride in Berner St. outside Dutfields Yard just minutes after 12:30 (12:35?), with a man, Smith says he carried a parcel, and Packer says he had just bought a bunch of grapes, wrapped.
The suspects must be the same person regardless of any differences in appearance.

I wouldn't promote Packer's statement any further than that, the above is the only piece we can confirm with what another witness saw.
It's circumstantial yes, but most cases are.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Owing to the description of Bricklayer's Arms Man, by J. Best, we have the following profile:

Height: 5'5"
Eyes: weak/sore
Eyelashes: none
Dress: well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. Collar and tie.
Hat: black billycock, rather tall
Facial hair: thick black moustache and no beard

The man appears to be English and middle class.

The man's female companion is said to be poorly dressed, and is obviously working class (or lower).

Do we know of any man who would fit that physical and socio-economic profile reasonably well, and have a reason for associating with a woman such as Elizabeth Stride?

The closet match is probably Thomas John Barnardo

[Dupin]

Barnardo as jtr? This must come under the heading: person of note alive at the time.

Keeping an open mind, what evidence would there be:
1) person of note alive at the time
that's it. No, let's be fair and add some more:
2) about the right age to morph into a serial killer
3) fits various descriptions, especially white collar and cuffs.
4) height unknown to me although the 'life-size' cut-out at the ragged school (recommended) when I visited it suggests he was of short stature.
5) trained briefly as a doctor, at the London Hospital no less
6) worked among the poor of the east end
7) would have been a feature of the east end and unlikely to arouse suspicion
8) an embroiderer of his title of doctor: some self aggrandizement perhaps? Is this a trait of SKs?
9) accused of effectively kidnapping children. His justification allegedly that the end justifies the means. (Didnt Shaw suggest jtr had assisted the East end?)
10) father in law to Henry Wellcome, a collector of note, said collection including postmortem implements and foreign daggers.

Against which: major philanthropist, serious Christian, respectable Victorian gent, lived until 1905, no known allegations of visciousness or moral turpitude.

Poisonally, Wellcome would seem a better target, although I hasten to add I am not making any such an allegation, a) because there is no basis for this and b) the Trust has an army of lawyers and a lot of dosh.

[Craig H]

Found this in a search for "Deerstalker Hat" and thought it was interesting.

Echo
June 7, 1888

Hi Jerry

Thanks for this. Sir John Bennett was obviously a man who liked expensive watches !

The text mentioned “black deerstalker”. I’m trying to work out what this was. A google search found several other references to this phrase. However, a deerstalker was tweed, country style ; not black.

I found a recent image of a black, felt deerstalker (worn in last 10 years) which more of a fashion thing.

I wonder if a “black deerstalker” back in the 1880’s meant a hat with both a front and back peak, but not a tweed deerstalker (a la Sherlock)that we think of ??

craig

[Craig H]

Does anyone know if Best and Gardner’s story about the man with weak eyes at the Bricklayers Arms was regarded as credible ?

I know they weren’t called to testify at the Inquiry. This could mean the police interviewed them and didn’t believe it was credible.

Had anyone else previously mentioned the idea that a suspect had weak, unusual eyes ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Barnardo as jtr? This must come under the heading: person of note alive at the time.

You're badly over-reading what I said.
My post was about the man given the moniker; Bricklayer's Arms Man
I suggested Thomas Barnardo was a good fit for BA Man's profile.
I did not say or imply; Bricklayer's Arms Man = Jack the Ripper (nor did I in #29)
These are two distinct identities, and further evidence would be required to suppose they represented the same man.

Some basic points on Thomas Barnardo...

Class - middle
Stature - short
Eyelashes - very short
Industry - philanthropy
Attitude - the end justifies the means
Previous contact with Stride - true
Observed victim at mortuary - true

Let's not forget what John Gardner said: "...before I got to the mortuary to-day (Sunday) I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary, and there she was with the dahlias on the right side of her jacket. I COULD SWEAR She is the same woman I saw at the Bricklayers' Arms, and she has the same smile of her face now that she had then."

If people could stop thinking about JtR for 5 minutes, they might be able to see some of the wider picture.

[Craig H]

Does anyone know if Best and Gardner’s story about the man with weak eyes at the Bricklayers Arms was regarded as credible ?

I know they weren’t called to testify at the Inquiry. This could mean the police interviewed them and didn’t believe it was credible.

Had anyone else previously mentioned the idea that a suspect had weak, unusual eyes ?

Tom Westcott covers the Stride witnesses in his book “Ripper Confidential”.

Westcott concludes :

“To borrow Best’s words, I would say it is ‘almost certain’ that Best and Gardner are solid witnesses who ‘almost certainly’ saw Elizabeth Stride in company with a man at the Bricklayer’s Arms public house around 11pm on the night of her death. That they were not called to appear at the inquest and were not mentioned in Swanson’s lengthy report is simply because Stride had been seen at later times in the company of a different man and therefore the evidence of the two men would have been considered”

However Westcott believes Best & Gardner, Marshall and PC Smith saw Stride with three different men; primarily due to their different descriptions of the man’s headwear :

“Best and Gardner described their man’s headgear as a ‘Billycock hat, rather tall,’ whereas Marshall said his man wore a ‘round cap with a small peak, like what a sailor would wear.’ In 1888, hats were status symbols in the way cars are today. There is no way that either Marshall or Best could have confused one hat for the other; it would be like mistaking a 1978 Volkswagen for a 2011 Lexus”

“PC Smith, who would see Stride talking to a man opposite the IWMES about 40 minutes after Marshall watched his couple disappear in the opposite direction, said that the man he saw wore a dark-colored hard felt deerstalker hat. This is much more in keeping with the hat Marshall described and just as contrary to that which Best and Gardner saw on their man”

“While the ‘kissing and cuddling’ and respectable dark clothing make it tempting to conclude that Marshall saw Stride with the same man as Best and Gardner, the difference in headwear makes such a conclusion improbable”

I’m not convinced on this. Wicker Man, in his post earlier in this thread, explains how some of these hats could appear similar.

Also, what is the chance that Stride hooked up with three different men over a two hour period that all looked similar ?

[Wickerman]

I see you are quoting a section where Tom deals with Marshall.

William Marshall saw a man & woman about 11:45 standing & talking in Berner St., just south of Fairclough, between Fairclough & Boyd St. Marshall said the couple eventually walked south toward Ellen St. The woman had no flower on her jacket.

So this was an hour before the murder, and Marshall admits there was no lamp nearby. Plus we know that Stride was wearing the flower at 11:00 pm at the Bricklayer's Arms, and the flower was still in place when her body was found, so the woman Marshall saw was likely not Stride.

Mrs Mortimer saw another couple standing on the corner of Berner & Fairclough about 12:45, she said:
"...A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."
London Evening News, 1^st Oct. 1888.

The girl was interviewed by the Echo:
From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."
Echo, 1^st Oct. 1888.

So it does appear other couples were in the street before the murder. The couple seen by Marshall had to be a different couple to the one identified above, I see the girl only met her man after 12:00 am.

[Craig H]

But I thought Marshall went to the mortuary the next day and identified Stride as the woman he saw ???