Surgical knowledge?

[robert newell]

Looks good.....

[Cogidubnus]

Well who's to tell Jon...the tip of an ear gets caught in a fold of the clothing and perhaps randomly survives the transit, whilst a juicy succulent kidney is carried off, pre discovery, by a passing cat? Or trodden into the ground by a passer-by?

Dunno mate...like I said, I think it was Bob Hinton's theory and his book goes to work with me tomorrow for a re-read on the bus, and at lunchtime...

By the by...check out who ACTUALLY cleaned up at least part of the Bucks Row crime scene...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

savoury pies

Hello Dave. Thanks. The locals sell hog heads in the market for "tamales" but just TRY to find a good kidney for steak and kidney pie. . .

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Like the piece of ear that was sliced off, yet fell from Eddowes clothing while being moved?
A piece of ear maybe, but a kidney, uterus, or even a heart?

Local workers or even Constables were detailed to clean the murder site up afterwards, and, .....the piece of ear, though severed, was not actually lost.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Organ removal

Wasn't it Bob Hinton, some years back now, who suggested that whilst there was evidence of progressive organ removal (in the sense of extracting abdominal contents) there was none really of organ removal (suggesting that body parts could easily have been squashed underfoot at unsupervised crime scenes, lost en route to the mortuary (or even at the mortuary), carried off by rats, cats and other marauding vermin etc?

I've got "From Hell" handy and think I'll give it a fresh read...as I recall it's a refreshingly "different" sort of book...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

A little more of the same sir?

Hi Lynn

I found this one from Mrs Beeton and thought of you

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X...20head&f=false

I did try sheeps head soup many years ago and very tasty it was too, but I can't say I fancy this dish much!

Bon apetit!

Dave

[lynn cates]

broad agreement

Hello Mike. In which case we largely agree.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

decapitation

Hello Tecs. In your steps, you omitted the attempt at decapitation.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I find it fascinating that the division on the issue of skill is based on medical opinion from both sides,... its simply a matter of whom you believe and whose opinion should be tossed out the door.

So, lets start with the uterus for sale idea. Baxters, not Phillips... the man who actually saw the victims dead and examined them. So no need to usurp Phillips comments based on this fellows conjectures. Do the nicks on the spine indicate that it is certain the killer attempted to remove the head? We dont know that, it could just as easily been a result of an adrenaline pumped butcher using too much force to sever both arteries. Did the killer intend to do more to Polly? Not based on the physical evidence of her murder, theres no suggestion of it anyway. Does that mean he did not intend to do more to Polly? No, we dont know if he did or didnt. Did the killer acquire Annies uterus using some knife skills? Yes, you can argue it all you like but Ill usually take the word of the man who saw the woman dead before any modern theorist. Unless of course he was unskilled himself....something that is not suggested in anything Ive read about our Dr Phillips. Do we know if the killer murdered Annie to get her uterus specifically? No, we know the doctor thought so. Were the women found to be in the same state physically when someone comes across them? No, Polly was still partially warm and thought to be barely breathing by one of 2 witnesses. Annie was stiffening.

Setting that aside, Is there sufficient circumstantial and physical evidence to associate these two womens death with a single killer, or killers? Almost everyone can agree on that,.. yes.

Can we say unequivacably that this killer or killers did not intend to get Pollys uterus? No.
Can we say that Annies killer did not intend to acquire her uterus before he killed her? No.

All Im trying to illustrate here is that without any additional facts or evidence neither "side" can win this argument. We can use logic and reason and imagination and life/work experiences to choose what makes the most sense to ourselves, but we cannot choose to assume a theory is incorrect if it can not be proven so.

So...no-one is right or wrong....yet...this is an exchange of perspectives and ideas. Mine is that the same man killed Polly and Annie, and he didnt kill any other Canonical, that he had some knife skill and anatomical knowledge, that he was of course insane with some grey matter malady, and that the reason he killed the women had to do with women, making the choice of a uterus within reason.

Cheers all

[lynn cates]

dressing

Hello Tecs. Thanks. Well, he claimed they were sheep heads. Not sure when he dressed them as he was at home only 4 hours per day. Doubt if he did that on the pavement.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

real cut up

Hello Ben. Thanks. Of course, I disagree.

But I would be astonished if he failed in the usual cutting up of a journeyman.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cuisine and cookin'

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Hungry? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

In short, there is absolutely no reason to think that JTR had organ extraction as a preconceived agenda before he killed everyone, and certainly no good reason to think he was interrupted in Buck's Row.

Ben.
The killer chose to lacerate her abdomen for a reason.
Yes it could have been just random slashing, but, he would also need to lacerate her abdomen to extract an organ. Therefore, it cannot be ruled out that, as clumsy as he was, he intend to cut out an organ.
So, "absolutely no reason" in not true.
The very fact the long wound turns in different directions indicates an intended cut as opposed to a thoughtless 'slashing' action.

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Hi Ben,

Very true, so how's about I throw this at you!

1. Ripper hears about samples of uterus being worth £20 from somewhere.
2. He thinks "Hmm, I've got a bit of surgical training (from wherever or whatever level it was)
3. He thinks, "No-one will miss one of those streetwalkers, I'll have one of their womb's and get myself out of this S**thole with the loot." (Good motive?)
4. Attacks Polly and stabs away ineptly. Stabs genitals (It's round here somewhere) cuts abdomen (ahah, here we go, oh s**t, who's that coming) and legs it.
5. Decides that if he is going to succeed he needs to do a bit more research and/or pick a more secluded spot.
6. Gens up somehow on removal of the uterus.
7. Attacks Annie and succeeds in gaining uterus.

As I always say, it's not impossible.

regards,

Wouldn't robbing or burglarizing one moderately successful person net someone just as much if not more money, and be far less personally dangerous? Even the murderers of whores hang.

And all things being equal, he has to have someone to sell the uteri to, and they either have to be known well enough to the murderer to not ask questions, or the killer has to come up with some reasonable provenance. Not to mention he has to invest in preserving equipment and the appropriate jars, seriously cutting into his profit.

I think that at best, he was going to kill them anyway, and he tried to get the uterus as just an added bonus. But even then, he still had to preserve it and sell it, and if he failed the first time, there is no reason for him to think that he would succeed a second.

[Tecs]

Hi Tecs,

Given the densely populated area, it isn't at all surprising that any murder committed on the street should be discovered shortly after the initial attack. The killer would certainly have been aware of this, and yet he spent precious time engaging in generalized stabbing of the genitalia ("meaningless cuts" as Baxter might describe them). If his goal was to extract the uterus for sale to a specimen-collecting doctor, he was going quite the wrong way about it.

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Very true, so how's about I throw this at you!

1. Ripper hears about samples of uterus being worth £20 from somewhere.
2. He thinks "Hmm, I've got a bit of surgical training (from wherever or whatever level it was)
3. He thinks, "No-one will miss one of those streetwalkers, I'll have one of their womb's and get myself out of this S**thole with the loot." (Good motive?)
4. Attacks Polly and stabs away ineptly. Stabs genitals (It's round here somewhere) cuts abdomen (ahah, here we go, oh s**t, who's that coming) and legs it.
5. Decides that if he is going to succeed he needs to do a bit more research and/or pick a more secluded spot.
6. Gens up somehow on removal of the uterus.
7. Attacks Annie and succeeds in gaining uterus.

As I always say, it's not impossible.

regards,