What do we really know about Jack?

[Damaso Marte]

The set of Whitechapel Murder facts that everyone (or almost everyone) on this forum agrees to is probably very small. We do not even agree with each other on basic things like time of death for many of the victims.

[miakaal4]

To DM
I agree there mate, I suppose it is because the Facts are not believed or are questioned. The Fact that the same killer murdered Stride and Eddows, is in doubt because there is no real evidence to prove it. Never mind what the people involved at that time thought. The trouble with us modern armchair detectives, is that having been bombarded with thousands of Police/Detective/Law/CSI etc TV shows + Movies + Mags and books, we "Know" the two killings could be separate. We know it could be a woman or a child or a quiet spoken man who dresses like a clown for children. The evidence that was good enough for Abberline, will never be good enough for us.

[Kuniworth]

You can of course speculate a lot about this. But a real police investigation focus on hard facts at the crime scenes and leave speculations to others.

Fact is that the ripper was seen by lots of witnessess. Either witnesses are believed to be telling the truth or the police will disregard that information given by the witness. We know that the police believed schwartz, lawende/levi, hutchinson among others to be tellning the truth. Jack the ripper was a white male, in his 30's.

[GUT]

G'Day Kuniworth

Can't agree that it's a "fact" that ripper was seen, someone may have been seen, but we don't know if that the person was the ripper. People are killed by someone who was not the last person reported to have been with them, ie they part company and some other person kills them.

[Kuniworth]

G'Day Kuniworth

Can't agree that it's a "fact" that ripper was seen, someone may have been seen, but we don't know if that the person was the ripper. People are killed by someone who was not the last person reported to have been with them, ie they part company and some other person kills them.

As I said, a police investigation focus on facts. Schwarz and Hutchinson, both were considered to be telling the truth. Schwarz saw an attack just minutes before Stride was slain. It's not possible to disregard that information. Considering that the description matches Lawendes sighting as well as PC Smith and Marshall's testimony we are pretty safe to say that the ripper was seen. Hutchinson also places the ripper's age at 30.

This is what should base every sane discussion on who the ripper was.

[Abby Normal]

As I said, a police investigation focus on facts. Schwarz and Hutchinson, both were considered to be telling the truth. Schwarz saw an attack just minutes before Stride was slain. It's not possible to disregard that information. Considering that the description matches Lawendes sighting as well as PC Smith and Marshall's testimony we are pretty safe to say that the ripper was seen. Hutchinson also places the ripper's age at 30.

This is what should base every sane discussion on who the ripper was.

Hi K
agree with you (except about hutch). in fact I recently started a thread on the suspect I call Peaked Cap man seen by the witnesses(smith, marshall, Schwartz and Lawende and co. as well as the suspicious man reportedly seen on Church lane) the night of the double event. Undoubtedly this man wearing a peaked cap/sailors cap was the ripper.

[Wickerman]

As I said, a police investigation focus on facts. Schwarz and Hutchinson, both were considered to be telling the truth. Schwarz saw an attack just minutes before Stride was slain. It's not possible to disregard that information. Considering that the description matches Lawendes sighting as well as PC Smith and Marshall's testimony we are pretty safe to say that the ripper was seen. Hutchinson also places the ripper's age at 30.

This is what should base every sane discussion on who the ripper was.

'Peaked cap' is a very generic description for a wide range of headware. Not only were there a variety of different styles of peaked cap, the peaked cap was very common.

Smith, Marshall & Lawende could all have seen different men wearing different peaked caps.

And, I wouldn't be too comfortable that Hutchinson did see the Ripper.

[Michael W Richards]

The only thing we know for sure, by the letter dated Sept 27th, is that the man who spawned that nickname likely killed Polly and Annie.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

The only thing we know for sure, by the letter dated Sept 27th, is that the man who spawned that nickname likely killed Polly and Annie.

Really not sure how you reach this conclusion, can you explain. I have to admit still a lot to learn.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Wickerman

the peaked cap was very common.

Have a look at this from 1903. What percentage of men are wearing a 'peaked' cap? If the PC had been as ubiquitous as the flat cap, witnesses would not have bothered to mention it. It would be a bit like saying, ' He was wearing trousers.' The wearing of a peaked cap was clearly something worthy of mention.

Three sightings of a PC is surely significant.

MrB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTjzryR7FSg

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman



Have a look at this from 1903. What percentage of men are wearing a 'peaked' cap? If the PC had been as ubiquitous as the flat cap, witnesses would not have bothered to mention it. It would be a bit like saying, ' He was wearing trousers.' The wearing of a peaked cap was clearly something worthy of mention.

Three sightings of a PC is surely significant.

MrB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTjzryR7FSg

If was was not sufficiently familiar with common Victorian dress I wouldn't have wrote what I did.

And, lets not forget, the man seen by PC Smith wore a deerstalker.

[curious4]

Jack alive

He's dead! Everything else is guesswork.

Yes - he must be now.

But when I first became aware of "Jack" in the early 60s (I didn't start serious reading until c 1972) it was just about possible he was still alive (albeit VERY old) assuming he had been say 18 in 1888.

Finding out about Jack gave me nightmares, my later reading was partially to allay those fears. And as a 12 year old I found the idea that he might still be alive very creepy and fightening.

Phil H

Hello Phil H,

Same here, except that I was living right in the middle of where the murders took place (where the Whitechapel road meets Aldgate street). What had me sleeping with the light on after a visit to Madame Tussauds was the fact that he could still be alive.

Best wishes,
C4

[John Wheat]

Not Enough.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Strengh, cunning and what looks to be some idear of whats inside a body but for me thats about it Im very unsure if anybody had seen him at all.

[Michael W Richards]

G'Day Michael

Really not sure how you reach this conclusion, can you explain. I have to admit still a lot to learn.

Hi GUT,
You remind me of me when I started asking questions here, still polite enough not to disagree immediately.

I was referring to the letter received by Central News on September 27th, the infamous Dear Boss,... its the first time anyone uses the name "Jack the Ripper", and based on the date, only Polly and Annie of the Canonical Group had been killed before it was used.

My contention GUT is that the profile of the killer of Annie and Polly is rare, and pretty specific, whether the venue is on the street on in the backyard. A double throat cut to ensure quick blood loss, both major arteries, and a desire to cut into the abdomen as soon as the victim has been positioned with her legs askew and she has lost consciousness. That killer, according to almost everyone excluding Dr Bond, revealed a man, likely by himself, with some knowledge of anatomy and the ability to use a knife with roughly a med students' precision. That is the man who is supposedly crowning himself Jack the Ripper in the letter....which by the way is virtually certainly not from that killer.

Then we have Liz Stride,.....unlike the 2 murders previously, then Kate Eddowes...the only other women with that same killer profile with the exception of Alice Mackenzie possibly, and Mary Jane, a woman killed in her own room after likely passing out from the excess booze before 1:30am. Kate Eddowes killer did not have the same skill with a blade that was seen in those first 2 murders, and if the intended objective was indeed a kidney, not a partial uterus, then he chose an odd position to place kate in to make that as easy as possible. He could have tilted her on her side facing away from him let alone placed her face down for that excision. In almost no light to boot. Mary Kelly's killer need not have, nor demonstrated, any skill or knowledge with respect to his cutting.

So there it is for me.....2 that fit, 1 that may, and 2 that do not.

Cheers