Can anyone help?

[miakaal4]

I have a few questions that some on the board may be able to help me with.
1. Would Kelly not have had a candle or lamp in her room? Surely she would not entertain in the pitch dark? And if so, why the fire?
2. Did any of the victims have V.D.?
3. Was Kelly pregnant or not?
Cheers.

[Phil H]

We don't know why the fire was so fierce, or even when it blazed, miakaal.

I believe Mary did have candles. In 1888 though many workers would have gone to bed when night fell. Look at the time that Cross, Paul and the inhabitants of 29 Hanbury St got up for work. So the rythms of life and the need for indoor lighting might have been different to that which we know 9at least for some).

That said there are clearly plenty of instances of the streets of Whitechapel teeming with humanity at a late hour (Berner's St). Also of people being up very late - all the comings and goings in Miller's Court.

When the autopsy report on Kelly was found a few years ago, it laid to rest once and for all the myth that she was pregnant.

For many years there was a theory of "Jill the Ripper" (an author called William Stewart publicised the idea though I think Conan Doyle may have had a similar solution in mind). Jill was supposed to have been an abortionist and MJK part of the proof.

Phil H

[Fisherman]

As for candles, we have it on record that Kelly actually bought a halfpenny candle from McCarthy´s chandlers shop on the 7:th.

The best,
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
And what's more the candle bought was half used, which suggested to the police, that the murderer did not need light from a fire , but needed to destroy something.
I am not a expert in how many hours it would take to melt half a candle, we only have since the wed evening to calculate.
Maybe we should conduct an experiment?
Regards Richard.

[Iain Wilson]

Hi,
And what's more the candle bought was half used, which suggested to the police, that the murderer did not need light from a fire , but needed to destroy something.
I am not a expert in how many hours it would take to melt half a candle, we only have since the wed evening to calculate.
Maybe we should conduct an experiment?
Regards Richard.

Do we know how big the candle was? I remember reading that she went to Joe McCarthy's chandler's shop to buy a candle - wasn't that when he berated her about not paying her rent?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Iain,
All we know it was a standard half penny candle, which may have been normal size as we know it..
It would be beneficial to be precise.
The police appeared to assume, that as it was half used, and assuming that it was the same candle purchased on the wed evening, was used to give the killer light,[ rather then a fire].
However they then gave the impression, that the murder took place in daylight, so no candle would have been used, or fire needed, except for burning items of bloodstained clothing, [which apparently would have been incriminating].
The Times November 12TH.
If it was a daylight murder, then the candle would have been used wed evening from darkness -dawn[ minus any time out on the 7th], and from darkness to 9pm on the 8th, and from 1145 until?.
Would that have consumed half a candle?
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Fish

Was it a halfpenny candle, or a farthing dip? There's a report that Abberline showed the jurors the room by the light of a farthing dip.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
Being the case it would be half the size,, another calculation now...
Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Richard

A farthing dip suggests to me something very slim, like a cake candle. Yet here it's described as being in a bottle - stuck in the top of the bottle presumably. In which case, what kind of bottle is that small? Something's wrong somewhere.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/18881112.html

[miakaal4]

In candle light

Oh cripes it's a horror to imagine the shadows on the bloody walls as he cut her. For some reason I felt firelight less evil. It is really interesting though that he needed to burn something. I mean considering it is possibly the only time he could have removed all his clobber and stopped them from being stained.
The other thing that is a bit odd to me in MJK's case is why she was wearing a sort of nighty. Is that not unusual? I would have thought she would remove the least clothing possible in case she wanted to go out or from the cold. Was that why the fire was lit?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Robert

Yes this puzzled me too - a halfpenny candle I can equate to, but a farthing dip, or a dip of any kind, I'd always assumed to be a narrow taper, perhaps made of tallow...and that doesn't tie in with the bottle...odd...

(But please let's not spend all our time debating rushlights!)

All the best

Dave

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Worthies of Cumberland, John Dalton F.R.S., 1874—

"The term 'farthing dip' is used to distinguish the crude, homemade tallow candle of that day—long in the stalk, of dirty-grey colour and rough surface—that was perhaps as much in favour as the little lamp that was made to do duty in consuming any oily refuse. A stick or turf fire, that emitted an occasional blaze, had occasionally to do the part of both candle and lamp, the eyes of the lieges being like the wiry framework of their bodies, and fit for any abnormal deviation of service."

Recent Wonders of Light, W.H. Preece, 9th January 1880—

"I remember the time when I used to be taken to bed with a farthing dip, or something very like one, with a piece of wire work around it, which was allowed to burn down, and the final smoulder of which gave off an odour of an almost unbearable nastiness, which scarcely left my nostrils by next morning's rising time."

Regards,

Simon

[Ginger]

I can't find a convenient price reference for candles in 1888, but in 1851 "Davies Old Established Warehouse" (a London chandler shop) was advertising 'store candles' for 5d a pound in the London Daily News. These seem to have been the cheapest candles that Davies sold (or at least advertised), and were, I should imagine, close to the quality that Mary would have bought. Davies 'Best Wax' candles went for 2s2d a pound by comparison.

If the cost of candles did not increase significantly between 1851 and 1888 (I don't know, but I doubt that it did), then when Mary paid a ha'penny for a one ounce candle, McCarthy was making 8d selling a 5d one-pound box of candles individually, which seems a not unreasonable cost ratio. I think it's likely that her ha'penny candle weighed an ounce, then.

http://www.beeswaxcandleworks.com/di...x_candles.html are claiming five hours burn time for a one ounce beeswax taper, which is five inches tall. Now the burn rate is going to depend on a number of factors, such as hardness of the wax, the size of the wick, and how closely the wick is kept trimmed, questions which we'll probably never be able to answer. Still five hours gives one something to speculate with.

[Ginger]

1. Would Kelly not have had a candle or lamp in her room? Surely she would not entertain in the pitch dark? And if so, why the fire?

At the risk of causing nightmares, I've always kind of wondered if he didn't cook and eat a bit of her.

[miakaal4]

Hi Ginger,
Yes that is indeed a possibility, the whole event makes you wonder if they were chatting for a while at first, taking his time for once. Perhaps he knew or felt this would be the last and made the most of it. The time of her death is all over the place, and the cry of "Murder!" could have come from another woman getting clumped by her old man!