Senior Investigators-Inside Knowledge

[Wickerman]

I believe "Kosminski" was arrested as a lunatic wandering at large (either at his brother's house or on the street) and brought to the workhouse by a P.C. I don't know why his hands were tied instead of using another means of restraint.

He could have been sent to the workhouse for a final evaluation before deeming him insane and bound for the asylum.

Are you saying "wandering as a lunatic" is a charge?

British law divides crime into Felony at the high end - most serious, down to Misdemeanor for nuisance-type crimes. I guess Stewart was assuming Felony, as opposed to Misdemeanor.
I guess if you're deemed to be a lunatic and you were found wandering in the street, there's no real defense there.
Was he arrested, or summonsed?

[Scott Nelson]

I believe "Kosminski" was arrested as a lunatic wandering at large (either at his brother's house or on the street) and brought to the workhouse by a P.C. I don't know why his hands were tied instead of using another means of restraint.

He could have been sent to the workhouse for a final evaluation before deeming him insane and bound for the asylum.

[Wickerman]

Just having a second thought here...

Stewart Evans once said that a lunatic cannot be charged with anything as a lunatic cannot be expected to provide a reasonable defense.

I'm just wondering if Stewart might actually have said - "a lunatic cannot stand trial", because he obviously cannot defend himself. But in this case as Kozminski was clearly & visibly unbalanced, they likely wouldn't have charged him with anything knowing it wouldn't stick. So, detaining him while a doctor is available is the most obvious course of action, which amounts to the same thing. The doctor orders him taken to an asylum for assessment.

[Wickerman]

"....after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified. On suspects return to his brother's house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse..."

Those are Swanson's words.
The fact the suspect was sent with his hands tied, and not in police cuffs suggests some other authority was responsible for this move - like medical staff?

[Wickerman]

What does 'difficulty' mean, in this context?
Does it mean; He wouldn't willingly admit himself to a mental asylum, so we has to drag him there, kicking and screaming

I think you are using the wrong "sent" the word was used twice by Swanson.
The suspect was "sent by us with difficulty" to the Seaside Home for the identification.
However, this same suspect was then "sent" to Stepney Assylum, but Swanson doesn't say with/by whom.

Why not just arrest him for the crimes?

Because to arrest someone they have to be charged with something.
Stewart Evans once said that a lunatic cannot be charged with anything as a lunatic cannot be expected to provide a reasonable defense.
A person can be detained without being arrested/charged with anything.
A suspect would be detained until a qualified doctor was available to make an assessment of his mental fitness, it is this doctor who would determine him to be a lunatic, or send him to an asylum for a more qualified determination.

[c.d.]

"Difficulty" could mean dragging an unwilling prisoner or it could mean the red tape they had to go through.

They could have charged him but I would think you would need eyewitness testimony to convict him. Now if it was Lawende all the defense attorney has to say is how long did you look at the defendant when you saw him on the street? How far away were you from him? Was it night time? How long a period was it before you identified him while in police custody? I think it would be pretty easy to shred that testimony.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I read Swanson's words as implying the suspect was taken to Stepney Workhouse by another authority. Earlier, in the same paragraph Swanson tells us the police "sent" the suspect to the Seaside Home ("sent by us with difficulty"). So when he next uses "sent", he doesn't identify by whom.

What does 'difficulty' mean, in this context?
Does it mean; He wouldn't willingly admit himself to a mental asylum, so we has to drag him there, kicking and screaming

Why not just arrest him for the crimes?
They may not have a lot of evidence against him, but how much evidence is required for a murder conviction, in an age before human rights?
He was probably average height or a bit under, wore a peaked cap, and looked foreign, and that quite tallies with the descriptions Mr Abberline got of 'him', by all the people that agreed they saw Jack the Ripper .... from behind.
The only discrepancy was that he was about 15 years too young, but's it's easy to misjudge age from a back view.

[Simon Wood]

I'm sure the press would have appreciated a little consistency.

But at what point could the decision makers have decided to break the news that they all agreed on the solution/suspect?

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Hi Abby,

Deflect and distract.

If they had all opted for the same solution/suspect, too many awkward questions would have been asked.

Regards,

Simon

By whom?

If all the decision makers are telling the same story, who is there to ask any questions?
Wouldn't the press appreciate a little consistency for a change?

[Wickerman]

What does 'sent' mean, in this context?
Does it mean; relocated under duress, and breaching the 'suspects' human rights, in the process

The great thing about 'suspects' who are locked up in asylums, or drown themselves, is that they are not in a position to fight back.

Scotland Yard were not only incompetent, they were unethical too.

I read Swanson's words as implying the suspect was taken to Stepney Workhouse by another authority. Earlier, in the same paragraph Swanson tells us the police "sent" the suspect to the Seaside Home ("sent by us with difficulty"). So when he next uses "sent", he doesn't identify by whom.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Abby,

Deflect and distract.

If they had all opted for the same solution/suspect, too many awkward questions would have been asked.

Regards,

Simon

[Trevor Marriott]

What does 'sent' mean, in this context?
Does it mean; relocated under duress, and breaching the 'suspects' human rights, in the process

The great thing about 'suspects' who are locked up in asylums, or drown themselves, is that they are not in a position to fight back.

Scotland Yard were not only incompetent, they were unethical too.

There was no such thing as humans rights in 1888 but there were procedures under the Lunacy Act that needed to be followed when dealing with those believed to be either insane or those perhaps on the brink. There is no evidence to show that the police were responsible for his incarceration the term relieving officer and overseer are also mentioned in the act, who it would seem had the same powers as the police. Hands tied behind the back seems to fit either of them than the police who would have used handcuffs.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Look, lets just clarify this once and for all.
Swanson wrote about the police interest in a suspect.

"On suspect's return to his brother's house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse, and then to Colney Hatch...."

The police were dealing with a suspect, there was no arrest, no charge, whoever this subject was he was a suspect and nothing more.

What does 'sent' mean, in this context?
Does it mean; relocated under duress, and breaching the 'suspects' human rights, in the process

The great thing about 'suspects' who are locked up in asylums, or drown themselves, is that they are not in a position to fight back.

Scotland Yard were not only incompetent, they were unethical too.

[The Baron]

bingo. it was the ID. the real question is how kos first came to the attention of the police. I would surmise it probably had something to do with him threatening his sister with a knife.

Exactly, also two other possibilties:


2.He had a great hatred of women, with strong homicidal tendencies.

Some prostitute must have been questioned by the police or agents and gave evidence or informations against him


3.This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

Here they had another witness too



The Baron

[Abby Normal]

...undiscovered murders are rare in London, and the "Jack-the-Ripper" crimes are not in that category...I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him; but he refused to give evidence against him...In saying that he was a Polish Jew I am merely stating a definitely ascertained fact"




The Baron

bingo. it was the ID. the real question is how kos first came to the attention of the police. I would surmise it probably had something to do with him threatening his sister with a knife.