Assignation of Victims to a single killer

[sleekviper]

BSM is Broad Shoulders Man.

[DVV]

Bernardin de Saint-Marcellin (correct me if I'm wrong)

[Hunter]

What I suggested makes perfect sense if one can connect Schwartz to the club...and I believe someone has recently discovered a possible connection between Schwartz and Wess. And despite any support given to the statement Swanson recounts in his memo, or by Abberline, there is no evidence that Israel Schwartz or his story had any appreciable impact on the investigations beyond the first few days...

Hi Mike,

Swanson's report was written on Oct. 19 and Abberline's on Nov. 1, so I would believe that encompasses more than a few days. As with most unsolved murders, its difficult to determine the impact of witnesses since no one was ever charged or tried for any of the crimes and most of the lower level police reports are not available to detail the use of such witnesses. At this remove, there is nothing officially noted to suggest that Israel Schwartz was discredited at some point.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

Swanson's report was written on Oct. 19 and Abberline's on Nov. 1, so I would believe that encompasses more than a few days. As with most unsolved murders, its difficult to determine the impact of witnesses since no one was ever charged or tried for any of the crimes and most of the lower level police reports are not available to detail the use of such witnesses. At this remove, there is nothing officially noted to suggest that Israel Schwartz was discredited at some point.

Hi Hunter,

Swansons report is a supposed summary of the statement he viewed that was given by Israel Schwartz and was written after the primary suspect for both murders became the second suspect sighting outside the square, someone pretty clearly, not BSM. Abberline primarily referred to the likelihood that "Lipski" was a slur, nothing about the full story or the suspect mentioned.

Im sure you know that Israel and Lawende didnt see the same man, and Im sure you know that Lawende was sequestered, was paid, and was introduced at the Inquest with the caveat that some of his evidence would be withheld. Israel never re-appears in the records after coming into the station Sunday night, is not recorded as even having been at the Inquest let alone a subpoenaed witness in it, is not the witness that is recalled a few times to view suspects, and is possibly connected to the Clubs Woolf Wess based on a Parisian connection from what I hear.

I think the belief stack is in Lawendes corner Hunter, by the known evidence, and since both witnesses saw different men, Israel logically wasnt used as a suspect witness in the investigation going forward. He was a storyteller whose story was retold a few times afterward by some senior men.

Cheers mate

[DVV]

Hi Mike
Both Lawende and Schwartz had a quick glimpse of the man, and in such circumstances I'd say that similarities and differences can be seen as equally striking.
Perhaps you want to see un verre à moitié vide, and me un verre à moitié plein.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike
Both Lawende and Schwartz had a quick glimpse of the man, and in such circumstances I'd say that similarities and differences can be seen as equally striking.
Perhaps you want to see un verre à moitié vide, and me un verre à moitié plein.

I would disagree David, and I think it highly unlikely the killer of Stride if BSM changed clothes to kill the next woman. They are similar...as are many witness descriptions. As to your last sentence, Im afraid my francais is not up to a translation.

Cheers David

[DVV]

No need to change clothes, Mike.
Both BSM and Sailor Man are described as about 30, none of them being long and thin but rather hefty (or medium built), both have a cap with peak, both have a moustache....
As for the colour of their clothes, well, "salt and pepper" isn't the opposite of black, and it was late at night.
So yes my friend, my glass is half full while yours is half empty.

[RivkahChaya]

Perhaps you want to see un verre à moitié vide, and me un verre à moitié plein.

[DVV]

Nice one (for a chaser)
The other glass is half full of Ardbeg.

[RivkahChaya]

As for the colour of their clothes, well, "salt and pepper" isn't the opposite of black, and it was late at night.

Have to agree here. Speckled gray, or even just plain grey, especially if it's a darker shade, is going to look black as soon as it is after sunset, even if there's still a lot of daylight left.

Ditto for hair, by the way, and then there are lots of people who go gray from the front back, or whose facial hair goes gray before his head hair. There are a lot of men who would be described as "gray" from the front, and "dark brown," or "black" from the back. Also, a lot of people with light brown hair can have a lot of gray that you don't see unless you are close up.

Just another case of descriptions that, while they don't exactly match, don't really contradict each other.

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks David and Rivkah for the translation.

Israel Schwartz's suspect: ".. about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands.

Joe Lawendes suspect, according to The Times of Oct2: "of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak"

Joe Lawendes suspect as per Swanson, Oct 19: age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."

It appears to me David that Israel described a shortish stockier man with dark hair, a dark moustache, a jacket that was a solid dark color and a black hat, while Joe described a "sailor like" personage, anywhere from 2 to 4 inches taller, with salt and pepper clothing, a red neckerchief and a grey cap.

As I said, I dont imagine that BSM changed clothing before going to Mitre..or that he shrunk when doing so.

I do see similarities but I dont see the same person in these 2 accounts David.

[DVV]

Hi Mike. From Swanson's report, 19 October :

"....but for the purpose of comparison, this description is much nearer to that given by Schwartz than to that given by the PC."

[RivkahChaya]

Israel Schwartz's suspect: ".. about 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands.

Joe Lawendes suspect, according to The Times of Oct2: "of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak"

Joe Lawendes suspect as per Swanson, Oct 19: age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."

Do we know how long those men had been in London, and how much time they spent with non-Jews? Because, frankly, that does not sound like the language of non-native speakers. Those descriptions were obtained, I suspect, with a lot of prompting, or suggestions of words, or the written forms that have come down to us are the writers interpretations of them, and don't reflect what the men actually said.

[Michael W Richards]

Do we know how long those men had been in London, and how much time they spent with non-Jews? Because, frankly, that does not sound like the language of non-native speakers. Those descriptions were obtained, I suspect, with a lot of prompting, or suggestions of words, or the written forms that have come down to us are the writers interpretations of them, and don't reflect what the men actually said.

We know in the case of Israel Schwartz that a translator was used Rivkah, so you are likely correct about the language used in the description in that instance. Joe Lawende spoke English, so I would imagine was amply prepared to offer a description in that manner.

Lets say for the sake of this discussion that the essential elements of each suspect are similar. Excluding of course the height, because in 1888 a man 5'9" was above average height and therefore noticeable in that respect. There still is the issue of some clothing disparity, lets use the scarf for one. Can you David or Rivkah see a killer killing twice within an hour at locations 10 or 15 minutes apart changing his appearance between them? Im asking with respect to the state of mind....isnt one of the main premises that ties these murders together that the lack of mutilations on Liz caused him to be frustrated and angry enough to kill a second time and more viciously?

A person in a heightened state like that wouldnt be thinking about his outward appearance, in my opinion.

Cheers

[RivkahChaya]

We're pretty much making the same point. I think the police prompted the descriptions toward more similar words, but probably not intentionally; maybe because of an assumption that they were talking about the same man, or maybe just because the police use a certain vocabulary. I suggesting that the dissimilarities ought to be given a lot of weight, and similarities can possibly be accounted for by police prompting, and language difficulties.

For example (and I'm not this this exactly happened; this is just an example of the kind of thing that could have happened): if the first witness says the suspect is 5'10, and is very sure, and the second witness, talking to the same officer says the suspect is "tall," the officer may prompt for something more exact, and when the witness hesitates, may say "Over 6 feet, or under?" then if the witness says "Under 6 feet," the officer might say, "So, about 5'10," and if the witness agrees, the officer writes down "5'10." If the witness had said "Over 6 feet," the officer might have said "Are you certain?" causing the witness to backtrack, and say "Well, maybe right around 6 even." Then the officer would ask "Are you sure it's six feet exactly?" and eventually write down "5'10 - 6' tall." Then the suspect the police end up looking for is described as "5'10, or possibly a little taller."

In fact, "tall" could have meant a lot of things, and if the witness himself was over 6 feet," it was unlikely that "tall" meant "5'10" to that particular witness.

It's like the Mary Kelly thing. She's described as both "5'7" and "tall." A lot of men in the early 21st century don't realize that "5'7" was very tall for a lower class woman in 1888. It's still taller than average now, even though it isn't remarkably tall.