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  • JtR, A Cottage Industry.

    Having been on this forum for a six months now, its plain to see that indeed the only real purpose for its continued existence is to enhance the popularity and keep the myth that is.... ''Jack the Ripper''. ALIVE.



    Far be it for someone to have a particular opinion
    only to be ban for a period of time for supporting that theory because it might give the site a bad name, or frighten new people off [ ridiculous ] . Yes im talking about the royal conspiracy or as it should be called ''the royal involvement'' which seems to be a taboo subject around here and savagely frown upon at the mere mention of it .

    Ive debated this at length and great detail[ see my previous post as i wont be discussing it on this thread] with one poster who seems to spend all his time trying to dismiss the entire theory as total fairytale stuff regardless of the mountain of evidence and personal/s testimony [which can not be and has never been 100 percent proven false despite claims from some authors ] that supports it.

    So let the seminars , exhibitions, podcast, conferences ,books by the hundreds , countless suspects, etc etc etc continue for all eternity, keeping the cottage industry called JTR alive so as to continue the endless money making pit for people who exploit it , shame on them for craving the fame by association .
    But for me, indeed this murder mystery was well and truly solved many years ago .
    Last edited by FISHY1118; 11-03-2019, 05:29 AM.

  • #2
    Yet still you post.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Fishy,
      I agree, the ' Royal Involvement' is contentious, particularly the Stephen Knight doctrine as laid out in his book. This theory generates so much debate, and the ire of others (in my opinion) because it has not stood up to scrutiny over the years and is the biggest cause of misinformation on the subject.
      That said, having that belief is not a problem, we're all entitled to our opinions and the Casebook forum is a great place to share ideas, this being my reason for joining after reading the site for many a year. I found that I would read up on a particular area, increase my knowledge and then forget it all later. By having the opportunity to regularly discuss diverse aspects means I have to keep sharp on lots of subjects, and since I don't know anyone with much interest in the case, this is the best place to do it.
      I don't have a suspect bias, and I'm always interested to know what facts, what evidence I may have missed, what's out there that I've ignored or misinterpreted. I don't always agree, but there's always something to learn. To make a point, I very recently praised Iconoclast for his article 'Societies Pillar'. It's not converted me to being pro Maybrick, but I admire the time and effort that he made in promoting his beliefs specifically to people like me who were not already on side. Notably, Iconoclast recognises there are serious flaws in his theory and that many people will disagree, but he made the effort to compose a piece that clearly lays out his opinions, and how he got there.
      Defending an opinion has got to be more than repeating things like "this has been proved" or refusing to elaborate on things like it's an inconvenience. There's lots of information about lots of things, not all of us recall the minutae of every suspect theory, particularly ones we don't hold much faith in. Personally, I welcome the input of a person knowledgeable on the Stephen Knight book and all the later permutations of the theory, because I don't have that level of knowledge.
      ​​​​​ I don't doubt, if the subject is debated in a meaningful way, that is open and productive, where you actually explain the reasons behind things to those who don't know, the forum can only be a better place.
      I do see how Ripperology can be viewed as a cottage industry. This doesn't mean there's a conspiracy ( or involvement?) to point blank destroy Stephen Knight.
      I look forward to your future involvement, I may well have missed a trick with the Royal Involvement. Maybe you can persuade me otherwise?

      All the best.
      ​​​​​​​
      Your evening of swing has been cancelled.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
        Having been on this forum for a six months now, its plain to see that indeed the only real purpose for its continued existence is to enhance the popularity and keep the myth that is.... ''Jack the Ripper''. ALIVE.



        Far be it for someone to have a particular opinion
        only to be ban for a period of time for supporting that theory because it might give the site a bad name, or frighten new people off [ ridiculous ] . Yes im talking about the royal conspiracy or as it should be called ''the royal involvement'' which seems to be a taboo subject around here and savagely frown upon at the mere mention of it .

        Ive debated this at length and great detail[ see my previous post as i wont be discussing it on this thread] with one poster who seems to spend all his time trying to dismiss the entire theory as total fairytale stuff regardless of the mountain of evidence and personal/s testimony [which can not be and has never been 100 percent proven false despite claims from some authors ] that supports it.

        So let the seminars , exhibitions, podcast, conferences ,books by the hundreds , countless suspects, etc etc etc continue for all eternity, keeping the cottage industry called JTR alive so as to continue the endless money making pit for people who exploit it , shame on them for craving the fame by association .
        But for me, indeed this murder mystery was well and truly solved many years ago .
        The passage of time and what evidence both new and old is available to be able to close this case are two factors which make the conclusion of a positive end impossible.

        The best way to describe this ripper mystery to those outside in the public domain is that there are three pillars that have kept this mystery alive for the past 131 years and the main facts which are supported by those pillars are

        1. Jack the Ripper was responsible or all the documented murders
        2. Ther was in reality a person called Jack The Ripper
        3. This killer cut and removed the organs from some of the victims

        If all those pillars crumble what are we left with nothing more than a series of similar unsolved murders, that had it not been for those issued propped up by the pillars then those unsolved murders would have drifted into oblivion many years ago.

        On this site and forums we have a handful of the same posters who are on both sites, who post daily week in week out, year after year, who fight tooth and nail to prevent those pillars from crumbling, despite facts and evidence which may suggest those old accepted theories previously relied upon which are being propped up by those pillars are now unsafe.

        I have an old friend called Joshua who owns a trumpet perhaps I should ask him to blow his trumpet and see what happens ?

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 11-03-2019, 10:24 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          As I’m obviously the poster who, according to you:

          . Seems to spend all his time trying to dismiss the entire story as a total fairy tale...
          I’ll respond.

          Firstly Fishy, I seriously doubt that you received a suspension for supporting the Knight Theory.

          Secondly the problem is when you use the word evidence. All you have is word of mouth, rumour and legend. Absolutely nothing concrete.

          But the main issue Fishy is this, and it’s something I’ve brought up so many times. It’s your absolute refusal to back up your claims. As you talk about the purpose of the forum, this is it. To discuss and debate and not just to make proposals and assume that everyone will agree. How many times have I brought up the very important holes in the story discovered in 1976 by Simon Wood? Ones that you openly stated that you could rebut and yet you’ve never once attempted to do so. Don’t you think that this frustrates debate (and indeed posters?) You came on this Forum appearing to have the opinion that the case was solved. You completely dismissed to opinions of people who have been studying the case for 30/40 years or more. 99% dismiss the Knight/Sickert theory, not because of bias but because they’ve looked at the evidence or rather the total lack of it. There would have been no issues on this subject if you had answered questions instead of obfuscating and avoiding.

          I have nothing personal against you Fishy but it’s extremely difficult to debate with a convert. It’s a bit like trying to discus evolution with a Young Earth Creationist. The subject is an interesting one. It would be interesting for me to know exactly how it originated but the overwhelming evidence is that the Knight/Sickert theory isn’t the solution to the case. You’ve allowed this certainty about the theory to lead you to making illogical statements. On Chapman for example, you’ve actually claimed that all of the authorities on Forensic medicine are wrong. Come on Fishy, what layman would make this claim dismissing all published work and all standard textbooks?.....simply to keep alive the idea that Chapman was killed elsewhere.

          In short Fishy there would be no issues if you simply backed up your claims and kept within the bounds of logic, reason, evidence and common sense.
          Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 11-03-2019, 11:02 AM.
          Regards

          Herlock






          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
            Ive debated this at length and great detail[ see my previous post as i wont be discussing it on this thread] with one poster who seems to spend all his time trying to dismiss the entire theory as total fairytale stuff regardless of the mountain of evidence and personal/s testimony [which can not be and has never been 100 percent proven false despite claims from some authors ] that supports it.
            If there is any evidence to support the Royal Conspiracy, feel free to share it. So far, I haven't seen any evidence from you that supports that theory, let alone a mountain of evidence.

            Gorman's/Knight's 'Royal Conspiracy' requires
            * A group of semi-homeless alcoholic prostitutes decide to blackmail the British government over something provably false.
            * The British government decides this is a serious threat to the monarchy.
            * With the full resources of the British government at their disposal, the conspirators put together a kill squad made up of a man who wasn't in England, an elderly stroke victim, and a coachman.
            * The men assigned to eliminate the blackmailers decide the best way to do this is to murder them in a way that turns the women from nobodies to household names, implicates the Masons, and undermines public confidence in the authorities.
            * The British government agrees this is the best way to quietly and secretly eliminate the blackmailers.
            * The victims fail to notice or respond when only members of their blackmail club are being messily butchered by the Ripper.
            * Over a year after the doctor has stopped murdering or doing anything to implicate the conspiracy, the conspirators decide that he is a threat.
            * Rather than kill the elderly doctor, the British government decides to fake his death and put him in an asylum, even though he was well known in the medical community and his picture had appeared in the newspapers.
            * The painter then spends decades hiding a child from the authorities and leaving still more clues that implicate the Masons. The conspirators do not decide he is a threat and do nothing to stop the painter.
            * The coachman, even though no one else cares, spends more than a decade repeatedly and ineptly failing to kill the painter and the child.

            In short, the Royal Conspiracy requires everyone involved - conspirators, killers, and victims to act in an incredibly stupid manner. It's patent nonsense even before we consider that the original source of the story, Joseph Gorman, admitted to making the whole thing up and that the Gorman account is full of provably false claims. .



            Comment


            • #7
              If the Royal Theory is true, The Diary must be fake. If The Diary is true, the Tumblety theory must be fake. If the Tumblety theory is true, the Druitt and Kosminski theories must be fake. They cannot co-exist as component parts of the same mystery. And so the dominoes keep falling, one after the other, with not a shred of evidence to differentiate one particular theory from another, but at the same time generating more than enough fictional lubricant to keep the wheels of the Ripper bandwagon turning smoothly.
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                The best way to describe this ripper mystery to those outside in the public domain is that there are three pillars that have kept this mystery alive for the past 131 years and the main facts which are supported by those pillars are

                1. Jack the Ripper was responsible or all the documented murders
                2. Ther was in reality a person called Jack The Ripper
                3. This killer cut and removed the organs from some of the victims

                If all those pillars crumble what are we left with nothing more than a series of similar unsolved murders, that had it not been for those issued propped up by the pillars then those unsolved murders would have drifted into oblivion many years ago.
                1. There were 11 murders in the Whitechapel murder file. Most people think the Ripper was responsible for less than half of those murders
                2. The idea that there was 1 person behind the Whitechapel predates most of the C5 murders and definitely predates the first Ripper letter.
                3. The violence of many of these murders drew the public's attention long before the killer started taking organs.

                The things that have kept the mystery alive are:

                1) The Ripper persona created by the letters. Without that the Whitechapel Murderer would be no more well known than the Torso Killer.
                2) The killings took place in a major city. The Austin Ax Murder killed more, but came from a much smaller town.
                3) There was no clear motive for the killings. The Bender Gang killed more, but they had a clear profit motive.
                4) The killer was not caught. HH Holmes killed more, but he was caught.
                5) The amount of violence inflicted on the bodies.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                  1. There were 11 murders in the Whitechapel murder file. Most people think the Ripper was responsible for less than half of those murders
                  2. The idea that there was 1 person behind the Whitechapel predates most of the C5 murders and definitely predates the first Ripper letter.
                  3. The violence of many of these murders drew the public's attention long before the killer started taking organs.

                  The things that have kept the mystery alive are:

                  1) The Ripper persona created by the letters. Without that the Whitechapel Murderer would be no more well known than the Torso Killer.
                  2) The killings took place in a major city. The Austin Ax Murder killed more, but came from a much smaller town.
                  3) There was no clear motive for the killings. The Bender Gang killed more, but they had a clear profit motive.
                  4) The killer was not caught. HH Holmes killed more, but he was caught.
                  5) The amount of violence inflicted on the bodies.


                  Hi Fiver
                  good post. IMHO the main thing that have kept the mystery alive is your point number 4. Its the classic whodunnit.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

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