Changing Your Mind

[Michael W Richards]

It seems this point has difficulty landing on some posters, so....there is no-one who saw Louis arrive, Morris arrive, Lave standing by the gates, or Israel, BSM, or Pipeman. All these witness events are claimed to have happened at the 12:40-12:45 time period, excluding Louis who by his account stated that he didn't arrive until "precisely 1". They are all individuals providing accounts without any corroboration whatsoever. An eye witness can be used to verify the circumstances on Berner Street from 12:50 until 1am...later CORROBERATED BY Goldstein.. That witness does not see or hear any cart arrive during that time. 4 witnesses claimed that they were in the passageway,...(most whose initial statements were taken within an hour of the murder), with other people gathered around the dead/dying woman... including Louis, at 12:40-12:45. Issac Kozebrodski says later that night he was there in the passageway at 12:40-12:45 and Louis sends him out to look for help, he does not say anyone accompanied him.

Not one club staffer said they saw anyone else, (not even the young couple seen by Fanny and James Brown), nor did anyone see what the club staffers (Louis, Morris..perhaps Lave as photographer) claim occurred, including when they arrived at the scene. Not one person saw, or heard, anything Israel described.

The preponderance of evidence given by eye witnesses suggest a discovery time of somewhere between Liz Strides last legitimate sighting, 12:35, and 12:40-12:45, when we have a plethora of stories...that by their contents, suggest something quite different than the accounts by those who made regular money from an open and operating Mens club.

[Darryl Kenyon]

An album of absolute genius by the way Spider

Indeed - Sugar Mice, one of my all time favourite tunes.
Regards Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

clutching at straws (Marillion 1987).

An album of absolute genius by the way Spider

[Michael W Richards]

If you can't believe Diemschultz statement to the Coroner, then why believe anyone else?

That's a hell of a statement. Why believe any witness statements, ever? Corroboration. That's the reason to back something.

Jon, I meant to identify or suggest someone can be considered a suspect based on the hat he is seen wearing.

[Jon Guy]

If anyone believes that any suspect can be qualified by the hat he was seen wearing they should take a look at how many hats just that like were worn everyday by hundreds of men in the area. The days of self expression via headwear, like modern mens hats seem to reflect, are not the LVP in the East End. You had a basic utilitarian hat you either were given, found in a shop or pawnshop, or just found. The range of styles was limited, the colors limited, and the frequency of seeing the same kinds of hats on men in the area was often.

What do you mean by qualified ?

[Spider]

If you can't believe Diemschultz statement to the Coroner, then why believe anyone else?

[Michael W Richards]

But Diemschutz (said he) was first on the scene and (said he) was the only one present at this point! He went into the Club to check on his wife and get help. At this time (he said) there was not a group of people stood around the body.

Im sure you get the bold implications,....no-one verifies Louis, no one verifies Eagle, or Lave, or Israel...yet 4 people verify each others time accounts. 12:40-12:45, by the body, while Louis is present.

[Spider]

But Diemschutz was first on the scene and was the only one present at this point! He went into the Club to check on his wife and get help. At this time there was not a group of people stood around the body.

[Michael W Richards]

If anyone believes that any suspect can be qualified by the hat he was seen wearing they should take a look at how many hats just that like were worn everyday by hundreds of men in the area. The days of self expression via headwear, like modern mens hats seem to reflect, are not the LVP in the East End. You had a basic utilitarian hat you either were given, found in a shop or pawnshop, or just found. The range of styles was limited, the colors limited, and the frequency of seeing the same kinds of hats on men in the area was often.

[Michael W Richards]

"....... A pony and cart......" really? I think you're clutching at straws (Marillion 1987). Not many about at that time and Diemschutz is on record as using George Yard.

Also, from the Coroners Report, a contemporary document, from neither my creative imagination nor a press report:

The Foreman: “Was there sufficient room for you to pass the body when you went into the yard?”
Diemschutz: “Yes.; and did so. When my pony shied I was passing the body, and was right by when I got down”.

It doesn't say: Diemschutz: No, I couldn't. My pony shied passing a group of people gathered around a body on the floor, and I couldn't get off my cart because of this group of people.

There was simply an empty yard save for Stride's body, A Horse, A Cart and Diemschutz.

If you read the witness interviews from the scene, within an hour of the discovery..3 of which stated they were by the body at around 12:40-12:45 and later another statement is added to those, youll note that there is only 1 instance where anyone mentions that cart and horse. Ive never disputed Diemshutz's pony shied, just what time that actually happened. When clutching at straws is just using evidence that exists, real evidence, to formulate a possible/probable scenario, almost everyone here will be out of business. 4 corroborated witnesses isn't straw at all.

[Jon Guy]

what about if they were already in a tussle when her throat was cut? as in perhaps Schwartz actually witnessed the deadly assault on stride but just didn't realize it. BS man knows hes been seen at this point and bolts.

Bingo !!

[Spider]

She heard A pony and cart, she didn't say that she heard Louis pass by or that she saw who was in the cart. The cart and horse were to be offloaded in the yard then taken to George Yard for stabling, she may have heard the horse and cart leaving.

"....... A pony and cart......" really? I think you're clutching at straws (Marillion 1987). Not many about at that time and Diemschutz is on record as using George Yard.

Also, from the Coroners Report, a contemporary document, from neither my creative imagination nor a press report:

The Foreman: “Was there sufficient room for you to pass the body when you went into the yard?”
Diemschutz: “Yes.; and did so. When my pony shied I was passing the body, and was right by when I got down”.

It doesn't say: Diemschutz: No, I couldn't. My pony shied passing a group of people gathered around a body on the floor, and I couldn't get off my cart because of this group of people.

There was simply an empty yard save for Stride's body, A Horse, A Cart and Diemschutz.

[Spider]

Billycock hat, sailor's hat, hard deerstalker hat, black felt hat with a wide brim?

Does it really matter? - No
Is it relevant? - No

Any criminal (burglars in particular) worth their salt, usually make an effort to change their appearance when out and about and especially once they have committed their crime. I'm sure, with his life at stake, Jack would have made an effort to not stand out and may even have simply changed his hat at some point on his prowls.

[JeffHamm]

no worries but ill run with abberline on this one. you dont give him saying the suspect wore a peaked cap any weight either?

The descriptions of men seen with women who might have been the various victims tended to describe a peaked cap, so looking at that there's some probability that it was the same person, and if so he wore a peaked cap. I suspect Abberline also recognized that these sightings were not solid enough to preclude men in other hats, or even men without hats ( I knew I would get that in eventually! ha ha). Basically, in all likelihood Abberline is where we are today, there's some suggestion JtR may have worn a peaked cap, but it's not overwhelming evidence.

- Jeff

[Darryl Kenyon]

lawende (and I believe one other) specifically said something a sailor would wear and or a sailors cap

Hi Abby, In Swansons report he says that Lawende said appearance of a Sailor. possibly down to the red neckerchief tied in a knot round his neck