Changing Your Mind

[Joshua Rogan]

(Sorry for the 80s band reference there).

- Jeff

I thought they were men without hats?

[Joshua Rogan]

She heard A pony and cart, she didn't say that she heard Louis pass by or that she saw who was in the cart. The cart and horse were to be offloaded in the yard then taken to George Yard for stabling, she may have heard the horse and cart leaving.

But the horse and cart didn"t leave - Louis said he left them in the yard. I'm sure if he'd been lying about that then the police who searched the yard would have noticed.

[JeffHamm]

But, as I wrote, witnesses were very specific with their cheese cutters, deer stalkers, skull caps. So, if you`re correct in that there isn`t actually a peaked cap then it`s add`s more significance to the different witnesses describing a peaked cap, or a cap with a peak on it.
Anyway, it`s significant enough for me to strongly consider that the peaked cap men on that night could be the same man.

Of all the witnesses described throughout the Whitechapel Murders who else was specifically described as wearing a peaked cap or a cap with a peak on it ?

Some witnesses were specific, some were less so. I would suggest those who described a "peaked cap" were just being non-specific, as that does not refer to a specific style of hat (other than one of the many types that have a peak). I agree with you that multiple sightings of a man in a peaked cap could be multiple sightings of the same man, but given the lack of detail, it's also possible it is just multiple sightings of different men in hats. (Sorry for the 80s band reference there).

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

She didn't...she heard him go past after she went inside;

Daily News 1 Oct
"Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

She heard A pony and cart, she didn't say that she heard Louis pass by or that she saw who was in the cart. The cart and horse were to be offloaded in the yard then taken to George Yard for stabling, she may have heard the horse and cart leaving.

[Joshua Rogan]

At 12:50 Fanny Mortimer is at her door continuously until 1am. She saw no-one arrive, but she did see Goldstein, so we know she was there. You might want to see where Fanny lived, check a map from here. She COULD NOT HAVE missed Louis arriving at 1.

She didn't...she heard him go past after she went inside;

Daily News 1 Oct
"Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

[Michael W Richards]

"the clingy Diemshitz Interruptus theories have absolutely no basis" - So warm body sometime after the event when the Doctor arrives some time later, indicating that the murder was very recent, to put it casually, means nothing?
Have you read the Coroners Report and Diemschutz's statement or is that fabricated?

"I believe that was while club members stood around her, checked for a pulse, figured out what to do." - And now you believe that there were club members stood around her? You couldn't make it up, though obviously you did.
Again, read the Coroners Report and Diemschutz's statement.

Im surprised you would ask a question like the first one, have you been reading the posts Ive made on this topic or just waiting for a chance to espouse your own beliefs regardless of what was posted? All Ive used are witness statements, and then added in the results of assessing who, if anyone, could have, or would have, made up their stories. Using the witness statements, at between 12:40-12:45, you have Eagle arriving when 4 other witnesses said they were already by Louis and the dead woman in the passageway, Lave seeing nothing while standing there at the gates, Liz Stride being simultaneously outside the board school and inside the gates dying, and you have Israel Schwartz seeing Liz being assaulted outside the gates by a man while another watched. At 12:50 Fanny Mortimer is at her door continuously until 1am. She saw no-one arrive, but she did see Goldstein, so we know she was there. You might want to see where Fanny lived, check a map from here. She COULD NOT HAVE missed Louis arriving at 1.

Louis says he arrived precisely at 1, which is probably either incorrect or a lie. Either 4 witness who all corroborated each others times and actions were incorrect, or Eagle, Lave and Louis were. Who was wrong or lied?

You see its not a matter of what the statements were, its that when all statements are taken at face value, the events and times described within cannot co-exist.

[Michael W Richards]

If Schwartz was at the meeting, surely he would have been checked for blood and his details taken by the police like everyone else there? Seems strange that they didn't remember this theatrical looking fellow who couldn't speak a word of english when he turned up at the station with a different story shortly afterwards.

I didn't say he stayed there after the murder Josh. I think during the day he was approached about making a statement to help the club avoid suspicions.

[Sam Flynn]

How many murders of this nature do you have to commit before you would be considered a "practiced killer"?

He did more than "partially sever" the throat arteries of Nichols and Chapman, both of whom had their throats cut almost to the point of decapitation. Kelly would suffer a similar fate, and the cut to Eddowes' throat was so deep on the left hand side that the knife scored her intervertebral cartilages.

[Spider]

As you can see by my reply to Herlock, the clingy Diemshitz Interruptus theories have absolutely no basis. The position of the woman in death suggests she fell while being cut, she drew her legs into her body, and lying on her side untouched after that single cut, she bled out. I believe that was while club members stood around her, checked for a pulse, figured out what to do. Which is why I favour an actual arrival time of 12:40-12:45 by Louis, before Fanny is at the door, an intentionally misleading witness statement by a friend of Wess's who attended the meeting that night, and a thug type, probably a hired security person for the meeting, reacting suddenly, violently, and briefly.

Everyone knows that based on only the evidence in this case, not as one half of a Double Event, or a presumed obvious case of a murder by an abdominal mutilator, there is no reason at all to conclude we must look for a serial mutilator who almost decapitates women with cuts and then opens their abdomens.

"the clingy Diemshitz Interruptus theories have absolutely no basis" - So warm body sometime after the event when the Doctor arrives some time later, indicating that the murder was very recent, to put it casually, means nothing?
Have you read the Coroners Report and Diemschutz's statement or is that fabricated?

"I believe that was while club members stood around her, checked for a pulse, figured out what to do." - And now you believe that there were club members stood around her? You couldn't make it up, though obviously you did.
Again, read the Coroners Report and Diemschutz's statement.

[Joshua Rogan]

an intentionally misleading witness statement by a friend of Wess's who attended the meeting that night

If Schwartz was at the meeting, surely he would have been checked for blood and his details taken by the police like everyone else there? Seems strange that they didn't remember this theatrical looking fellow who couldn't speak a word of english when he turned up at the station with a different story shortly afterwards.

[Jon Guy]

As far as I can work out, a peaked cap wasn't a particular style of cap, it was just a cap with a peak. So, a deerstalker is a peaked cap, so is a soldier's cap, etc. At least, I have never been able to find "peaked cap" defined as a specific style. Basically, someone saying a peaked cap is differentiating them from a brimmed hat (like a bowler). This could be simply because they can't recall the detail, but recall it was something with a peak, rather than a brim. I could be wrong, but nobody has ever demonstrated that "peaked cap", in Victorian times, meant "this specific type of hat". As a result, it's like saying someone wore "boots", but that doesn't tell you if they were Doc Martins, etc.

I think we all have our own opinion of what it means, and I tend to picture a cloth cap type thing, but just because I picture that doesn't mean that's what a witness is referring to. Basically, two witnesses could say "he wore a peaked cap" and yet the caps they saw could be very different.

As I say, I could be wrong, and if someone has a source to document that "peaked cap" was used to mean something specific in 1888, then that would be useful to know.

- Jeff

But, as I wrote, witnesses were very specific with their cheese cutters, deer stalkers, skull caps. So, if you`re correct in that there isn`t actually a peaked cap then it`s add`s more significance to the different witnesses describing a peaked cap, or a cap with a peak on it.
Anyway, it`s significant enough for me to strongly consider that the peaked cap men on that night could be the same man.

Of all the witnesses described throughout the Whitechapel Murders who else was specifically described as wearing a peaked cap or a cap with a peak on it ?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

Were peaked caps that common?
Yes, most caps had a peak, but Victorians knew their hats and if it they described a cheese cutter, a deer stalker or a peaked cap, that`s what they saw
For example, of all the men seen with Stride that night, how many wore peaked caps ?
I think it`s only two, and if you look at their descriptions by the different witnesses they were probably the same man.
In fact, on that night the men in peaked caps were:

the man seen by Marshall
BS man
Church Lane Man
Lawende`s Man

It`s interesting that following the peaked cap men seen that night, leads us from one murder site to another.

As far as I can work out, a peaked cap wasn't a particular style of cap, it was just a cap with a peak. So, a deerstalker is a peaked cap, so is a soldier's cap, etc. At least, I have never been able to find "peaked cap" defined as a specific style. Basically, someone saying a peaked cap is differentiating them from a brimmed hat (like a bowler). This could be simply because they can't recall the detail, but recall it was something with a peak, rather than a brim. I could be wrong, but nobody has ever demonstrated that "peaked cap", in Victorian times, meant "this specific type of hat". As a result, it's like saying someone wore "boots", but that doesn't tell you if they were Doc Martins, etc.

I think we all have our own opinion of what it means, and I tend to picture a cloth cap type thing, but just because I picture that doesn't mean that's what a witness is referring to. Basically, two witnesses could say "he wore a peaked cap" and yet the caps they saw could be very different.

As I say, I could be wrong, and if someone has a source to document that "peaked cap" was used to mean something specific in 1888, then that would be useful to know.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

".... indicating that her killer had no further intentions with her"

Are we not forgetting here that the killer was interrupted by Diemschutz entering the yard with his horse and cart? Rather he had the intention but not the time, and Stride was a work in progress.

As you can see by my reply to Herlock, the clingy Diemshitz Interruptus theories have absolutely no basis. The position of the woman in death suggests she fell while being cut, she drew her legs into her body, and lying on her side untouched after that single cut, she bled out. I believe that was while club members stood around her, checked for a pulse, figured out what to do. Which is why I favour an actual arrival time of 12:40-12:45 by Louis, before Fanny is at the door, an intentionally misleading witness statement by a friend of Wess's who attended the meeting that night, and a thug type, probably a hired security person for the meeting, reacting suddenly, violently, and briefly.

Everyone knows that based on only the evidence in this case, not as one half of a Double Event, or a presumed obvious case of a murder by an abdominal mutilator, there is no reason at all to conclude we must look for a serial mutilator who almost decapitates women with cuts and then opens their abdomens.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Abby Normal.

For me, the problem with peaked cap as a commonality is that peaked caps were extremely common. You could pick any two men at random and have a high probability they were wearing a peaked cap, dark clothes, and had a mustache. It certainly means the same person could have been seen, but it's also highly probable that 3 different people could be seen and produce that description (which includes more details than just peaked cap). So again, there's nothing inconsistent with it being the same person, but it's also not sufficient to conclude it was the same person in my view.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff

Were peaked caps that common?
Yes, most caps had a peak, but Victorians knew their hats and if it they described a cheese cutter, a deer stalker or a peaked cap, that`s what they saw
For example, of all the men seen with Stride that night, how many wore peaked caps ?
I think it`s only two, and if you look at their descriptions by the different witnesses they were probably the same man.
In fact, on that night the men in peaked caps were:

the man seen by Marshall
BS man
Church Lane Man
Lawende`s Man

It`s interesting that following the peaked cap men seen that night, leads us from one murder site to another.

[Michael W Richards]

Can you form a pattern in just two murders though? Even if we don’t go for the suggestion that Diemschutz interrupted the killer might not something else have spooked him into getting away?

I would say yes Herlock, when those 2 murders are virtually identical in all the relevant aspects of the crime. MO, Victimology, Knife/Anatomy skills, abdominal mutilation requirements, (I say requirements because he could have just killed Polly in an open ended street and left, but he chose to start abdominal mutilations). Kates killer could have left with his kidney, but at either the last moment or during the attack, he chose to take time to cut her face. Marys killer chose to stay in a room, with his back to the window into the room, and cut her seemingly meaninglessly...because he chose to stay and do that after the kill. In these decisions we see the true killer most clearly.

Liz Stride is officially last seen on the street outside the gates at 12:35....its recorded by a pc....Louis says he arrives precisely at 1am, disputed by 4 witnesses who all have corroborating times. And one witness watching the street for the last 10 minutes of that hour. That's the tableau. So...Louis either arrives before Fanny is at her door continuously, which would put him as witness to Schwartz's altercation had it existed, or he arrives after Fanny goes inside. After 1am.

That gives us from 10 minutes to 25 minutes that Liz is out of sight, depending on whom you trust here, and an estimated cut time as early as 12:46.

Either way, there is nothing happening there to suggest any interruption of the murder took place. There is also nothing within the physical evidence to suggest it either.