Astrology and Ripperology

[23Skidoo]

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself! You are incorrect that the patterns are not "unique," but that depends on the condition. Most are repeatable which directly contradicts your previous claim.

I will let your argumentum ad captandum vulgus pass unmentioned.

Incorrect. Everyone is genetically unique and the environment plays a significant role in any serious illness. The chance of an exact repetition of all these factors is remote, Whether practising doctors always take this into consideration or not may be a factor in the high degree of misdiagnosis in modern medicine. Fortunately most conditions can be diagnosed in a more generalised way as you say. But thats not scientific method. Thats my only point.

Now, why are you afraid of the evidence? Because you do not like it? You have not looked at it have you? Because you are afraid.

Show me some. You can't!

Oh and, en passant, by definition, meningitus involves meningismus which is absent in migraine or other headache syndromes.

The only data you have in the case I mentioned is that reported to you, I didnt say you were allowed any further examination. My point was on limited data.

[23Skidoo]

Well, forget Migraine and Meningitis, what about skin cancer and food poisoning?

Anyhow, you have made the claim that a serial killer or likely serial killer can be picked out from his chart, and that's the medical equivalent of diagnosing terminal brain cancer.

Well, I've made the claim that it might be possible, not that it is. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

What about the original test I mentioned, where an astrologer draws up 10 charts and interprets them then gives the interpretation to 10 people who are supposed to pick their own? Assuming we're not asking for 100% correctness, just measurably better than chance, why won't that test work? If the charts say "you are likely a serial killer" and there's one in the set, that would probably be enough to pass the test. Hopefully we could find something less extreme to work with though!

Well the problem of that is people are terrible at judging their own character.
Its fairly psychologically naive to assume we 'know ourselves'. This works both ways most people will deny any character flaws and identify with positive traits they only think they have. Fraudulent astrologers often work as much by vague flattery as well cold reading.

[Sam Flynn]

Coming onto the boards decrying Judaism or Islam or Christianity would likely get you banned around here

I'm not so sure, G - we have had some vigorous debates around religion which haven't led to any bans as far as I can recall. Astrology, in some ways a primitive precursor to religion, is surely fair game in that case. After all, isn't a large part of modern Ripperology all about the debunking of irrational belief systems?

Welcome (again?) to the boards.

[Doctor X]

Watch it, folks... astrology is not just a fortune telling method to some, there are religions that utilize it as part of their practice.

So what?

Coming onto the boards decrying Judaism or Islam or Christianity would likely get you banned around here, I don't see why this is any different -- please watch yourselves.

Then you need to descend from your pedestal and check your analogies: when a poster claims he can identify Jack based on his reading of the Pentateuch, Q, or Haddith . . . then you will have a point.

"Hey, did you check those pithoi from Kuntillet 'Ajrud? I think that is Jack killing Mary Kelly! No! Really!"

. . . who is to say the Ripper didn't believe in it?

Show the evidence he did.

And that was not the claim made in the thread.

Next time . . . read the thread.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

P.S. Welcome to the forums!

P.P.S. Two drink minimum.

[Godgifu]

Watch it, folks... astrology is not just a fortune telling method to some, there are religions that utilize it as part of their practice. Coming onto the boards decrying Judaism or Islam or Christianity would likely get you banned around here, I don't see why this is any different -- please watch yourselves.


As for the merits of exploring this subject, even if any given person here doesn't think astrology is true, who is to say the Ripper didn't believe in it? Perhaps he might have been out committing murders because he believed the stars were telling him to do so, or that they indicated a lucky day for him where he'd be able to sneak away, or something.

[Doctor X]

Anyhow, you have made the claim that a serial killer or likely serial killer can be picked out from his chart, and that's the medical equivalent of diagnosing terminal brain cancer.

If he merely read a book on the subjects he proclaims, he would avoid such silliness.

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

Hardly incorrect, a proper diagnosis involves the assessment of a unique pattern of symptoms, medical test results, a patients medical history and a knowledge of their current enviroment against the background of medical theory.

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself! You are incorrect that the patterns are not "unique," but that depends on the condition. Most are repeatable which directly contradicts your previous claim.

I will let your argumentum ad captandum vulgus pass unmentioned.

But lets relate that to Jack, . . .

Still waiting for you to relate to reality.

Now, why are you afraid of the evidence? Because you do not like it? You have not looked at it have you? Because you are afraid.

Thanks.

Oh and, en passant, by definition, meningitus involves meningismus which is absent in migraine or other headache syndromes.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Christine]

Well, forget Migraine and Meningitis, what about skin cancer and food poisoning?

Anyhow, you have made the claim that a serial killer or likely serial killer can be picked out from his chart, and that's the medical equivalent of diagnosing terminal brain cancer.

What about the original test I mentioned, where an astrologer draws up 10 charts and interprets them then gives the interpretation to 10 people who are supposed to pick their own? Assuming we're not asking for 100% correctness, just measurably better than chance, why won't that test work? If the charts say "you are likely a serial killer" and there's one in the set, that would probably be enough to pass the test. Hopefully we could find something less extreme to work with though!

[23Skidoo]

Hardly incorrect, a proper diagnosis involves the assessment of a unique pattern of symptoms, medical test results, a patients medical history and a knowledge of their current enviroment against the background of medical theory. There's nothing controversial there. And each diagnosis is unique and unrepeated in practise. Claiming the falseness of such a claim will just make you look silly.

But lets relate that to Jack, I think the unique situation of the bodies made any medical analysis difficult. There seems to be a recurring discrepency between medical opinion and witness testimony that points to that.

Ipse dixit but incorrect.

For some reason, you have not addressed the evidence against your claims.

What are you afraid of?

--J. "Well, Thanks to Our Kindness and Skill" D.

I await some relevant evidence. Genuine astrolologers have never claimed to be able to make definite conclusions from charts alone, which is all has been quoted so far, so those experiments were void.

Its rather like having a bunch of patients with bare data showing a severe headache and nausea, and being asked to distinguish Migraine from Meningitus. Thats no test of medical efficiency....

I predict your answer will be an unsupported 'incorrect'

[Doctor X]

Exactly. And my quote to the evil doctor about medicine was about diagnosis too, which is much less scientific (its never repeated).

Ipse dixit but incorrect.

For some reason, you have not addressed the evidence against your claims.

What are you afraid of?

--J. "Well, Thanks to Our Kindness and Skill" D.

[Blackkat]

Astrology could ultimately only be proven beyond reasonable doubt in this case if it led to the capture of the Ripper. I fear we maybe too late...

Excellent point Vigilantee

[Vigilantee]

Astrology could ultimately only be proven beyond reasonable doubt in this case if it led to the capture of the Ripper. I fear we maybe too late...

[23Skidoo]

Well, I've heard some people argue that the whole idea of a non-material world is meaningless; that there are only material phenomena we don't understand. Our ancestors would certainly have considered electricity as non-material; now we accept it as such. Possibly astrology is governed by some force that we will someday consider to be a material phenomena. But I'm not sure it matters practically, and it's all off-topic...

Depends what you mean by 'meaning'. Logical positivists used to say that, till logical positivism was proved meaningless by its own criteria. On the other hand others say meaningfulness is impossible in a material universe, even though meaning is self evident. Scientists know better, they just pragmatically accept whatever works. Off topic? Hopefully, a break in habitual thought patterns is always useful.

Well, context and background info can be included in your analyses. Psychologists certainly do it.

Exactly. And my quote to the evil doctor about medicine was about diagnosis too, which is much less scientific (its never repeated).

I'd argue that it's pragmatic, not unscientific. Science has plenty to say about art and love and religion and all sorts of other subjective phenomena, but pretty much all it says about astrology is that it doesn't give any useful information that the astrologer doesn't already have before he draws the chart.

Pragmatic on its own terms perhaps lol. Science has a lot to say on subjective items, but its usually wrong.

Its easy to create a consistent description of anything using limited data, but to mistake this for reality is an error.

I don't see at all why the scientific method would have a problem with meanings in context. There certainly might be practical problems as the number of variables explodes, but this is not a problem with the method. What's more, you can narrow things down to 'Mars opposite Venus in relation to (whatever)' and if you can find enough examples of that, you should be able to make some sort of probabilistic conclusion.

Yes, but the variables are:

The aspects of each of the 10 planets to each of the other planets

Positions of planets in signs

Aspect of each planet to midpoints between all other planets

Position of all of these in relation to house cusps (which change every two hours).

And thats to get the meaning of just one planet, think of the number of variables and the problem of gathering data.

The only identical charts are those born in same hour on same date at same location, and even then its probabilistic. What might be interesting and easier is to find a serial killer and compare him with others born at exactly the same time in same city. But would we have enough of a sample to compare lol

Yeah, but think of the practical implications. Let's imagine that we knew that everyone born in a certain town at a certain hour had a very high chance of being a psychotic killer. We could induce or delay labor or just move pregnant women to a different town and eliminate a large number of murders! Surely this is no harder than figuring out vaccines or vitamin K injections or silver nitrate eye drops, and just as useful. Plus we could potentially predict which babies would be geniuses and which would be depressed, or sickly, and easily control these factors.


The main reason these things are NOT being done is that astrology has failed much simpler tests, over and over again. It is not because scientists are determinists and materialists, or incapable of setting factors in context, or because it's a whole lot of work. It's because everyone who has sat down to do the hard work has eventually given it up as useless.

Yes, but I'd miss my fav TV progs with all that work! And if there were no serial killers life would be more boring....

Show me any scientific experiment supposed to test astrology and I'll explain why it doesn't. I've read most of them they always get it wrong.

On the other hand I believe in astrology because it works for me I've gained from it, including financially via gambling, so pragmatically I believe in it. If scientists ever prove it it reduces my advantage doesn't it?

[Christine]

I don't think you're made adamkle! It's actually possible. I think your mistake is not realizing how many strange coincidences can be made to fit the dates when you start allowing your definitions to stretch.

You started with UK coronations, which is a pretty small set. If I had a reference list I could probably figure out the chances that five random dates would fall on a coronation anniversary. I bet it's higher than you'd guess. But then you found a date that didn't fit, and found a fit for it.

We could also calculate the chances that five random dates would fit royal births and/or coronations, but the problem is that if there wasn't a royal birth but there was a foreign coronation (for example) would you have called that a fit as well? If so we really need to look at UK coronations, royal births, and foreign coronations (or whatever else).

So at this point, your set of potential dates is really very large, and of course you have to deal with Julian/Gregorian and weekend vs. weekday, which further complicates the whole thing.

Now if there were a suspect that had said something anti-coronation and anti-birthday, that would be different, because your set of dates would be constrained in advance, and you'd be fitting the murders to a fixed set of dates.

[adamkle]

Let's imagine:

Someone second-in-line to the throne dreams about power. He hates, he kills, he imagines, but he doesn't want to be caught. He is mad. He - or his "associate/s" - make/s brutal ritual, that offends his grandmother and father, but his true identity must be hidden.
In 1888 famous prince Eddy was "second-in-line", wasn't he? But I don't know, if he dreamed about British throne. Well, I just think he could dislike Edward and Victoria. They didn't treat him as a good successor, did they? But, was he mad? Mad enough and so revengeful?
Poor Eddy. People loves "royal conspiracy theory" so much...
I'm suprised that no one mention this strange coincidence of November 9 in RC theories. Maybe I'm mad? No, I think I should just read more