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Heart removal in the dissecting room.

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  • Heart removal in the dissecting room.

    Just reading:
    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27194&page=35

    In particular Debra Arif's post #350, which I partially quote:

    18th November London Observer article reports that:
    "Though the coroner prevented most of the medical evidence from coming out, it is believed that much of it will be of a curious nature. According to one report published on Friday it seems that the assassin cut the woman's heart out and carried it away, and if he did not carry away the other parts of the body, it was supposed that he was either disturbed or that he forgot them in his hurry to escape. That he cut the heart out from below instead of cutting through the diaphragm does not, as some argue, show that he is an ignorant person..."

    The comment about 'no anatomical knowledge shown' is something we know Dr Bond also concluded, similarly Dr Hebbert in his 1903 article

    "A woman was killed in a room. After the most frightful mutilation and destruction of her body, she was placed in a bed in such a position as would indicate the overpowering fiendish sensual passion of the brute. There was nothing to suggest any knowledge of anatomy or surgical skill. In fact. he evidently had attempted to remove the heart by cutting the ribs, and, failing to do this. he had dragged it down through the midriff. As I saw the awful sight before any disturbances of the body. or interference with the room, I can.vouch for the truth of the conditions, and shall-never forget my vivid impression of the scene." ('Criminology' Canadian Medical Record,1903; a paper read before the St. James Literary Society, Jan. 15. 1903"

    Just wondering how a heart would be removed by a medical student at the time (or twenty years ealier) in a dissecting room.

    Any similarity to the approach quoted above?

    Appreciate any thoughts.

    Martyn

    (Please not a heart was missing/not missing thread, thanks!)

    It was me. I let the dogs out.

  • #2
    Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
    Just reading:
    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27194&page=35

    In particular Debra Arif's post #350, which I partially quote:

    18th November London Observer article reports that:
    "Though the coroner prevented most of the medical evidence from coming out, it is believed that much of it will be of a curious nature. According to one report published on Friday it seems that the assassin cut the woman's heart out and carried it away, and if he did not carry away the other parts of the body, it was supposed that he was either disturbed or that he forgot them in his hurry to escape. That he cut the heart out from below instead of cutting through the diaphragm does not, as some argue, show that he is an ignorant person..."

    The comment about 'no anatomical knowledge shown' is something we know Dr Bond also concluded, similarly Dr Hebbert in his 1903 article

    "A woman was killed in a room. After the most frightful mutilation and destruction of her body, she was placed in a bed in such a position as would indicate the overpowering fiendish sensual passion of the brute. There was nothing to suggest any knowledge of anatomy or surgical skill. In fact. he evidently had attempted to remove the heart by cutting the ribs, and, failing to do this. he had dragged it down through the midriff. As I saw the awful sight before any disturbances of the body. or interference with the room, I can.vouch for the truth of the conditions, and shall-never forget my vivid impression of the scene." ('Criminology' Canadian Medical Record,1903; a paper read before the St. James Literary Society, Jan. 15. 1903"

    Just wondering how a heart would be removed by a medical student at the time (or twenty years ealier) in a dissecting room.

    Any similarity to the approach quoted above?

    Appreciate any thoughts.

    Martyn

    (Please not a heart was missing/not missing thread, thanks!)
    There was no heart taken from Millers Court

    Insp Reid 1896

    "I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete.!

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      There was no heart taken from Millers Court

      Insp Reid 1896

      "I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete.!
      Well done, Trevor:

      Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

      (Please not a heart was missing/not missing thread, thanks!)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

        There was no heart taken from Millers Court

        Insp Reid 1896

        "I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete.!

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
        lol right on que
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh well, least no one has mentioned Lechmere yet. And your'all be pleased to know I've put away my Tin Foil Hat for the time being!

          Martyn
          It was me. I let the dogs out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Lechmere

            Sorry Martyn, couldn’t resist it. I feel like Blackadder saying Macbeth!
            Regards

            Herlock






            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              Lechmere

              Sorry Martyn, couldn’t resist it. I feel like Blackadder saying Macbeth!
              Aaaaaah! Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends! Aah!
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                Aaaaaah! Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends! Aah!
                Classic
                Regards

                Herlock






                "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  It was me. I let the dogs out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To clarify a bit: At the back of mind I'm kind of trying to fit two hypothetical pieces of puzzle together:

                    1. Jack was a "failed medical student". In his early forties at the time of the WMs.
                    2. Jack showed a known but outdated method of abstracting the heart?

                    Martyn
                    It was me. I let the dogs out.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think a surgeon, pathologist, anatomist or medical student would remove the heart after cutting open the chest down the midline. What Kelly's killer did was ostensibly to burrow up through the diaphragm and reach up between the lungs - an inefficient and clumsy way of doing things.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, wait. Some Ripperologists say the method was a new one, known in Europe, but not in the U.K., except by an instructor of Francis Thompson. ( This is not in support of this suspect theory, I am just curious as to whether or not the method was known to medical science at the time?)

                        Pat D
                        Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                        ---------------
                        Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                        ---------------

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks, Sam, Pat.
                          It was me. I let the dogs out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                            Well, wait. Some Ripperologists say the method was a new one, known in Europe, but not in the U.K., except by an instructor of Francis Thompson. ( This is not in support of this suspect theory, I am just curious as to whether or not the method was known to medical science at the time?)

                            Pat D
                            I can't imagine why any physician would adopt an alternate standard procedure for removing the heart, to what purpose?
                            The patient is always dead, and the heart has no use beyond dissection for the anatomist.

                            The conventional autopsy required the ribs be removed by saw to give access to the chest cavity (heart) without disturbing the abdominal organs.
                            The standard procedure was always to investigate the head (cranium), then Thorax, then Abdomen, in that order.

                            Professor Rudolph Virchow, in his landmark, Post Mortem Examinations, 1885, wrote of the importance of following the prescribed procedure for analyzing the organs.
                            "In a systematic and scientific performance of an autopsy, nothing is more difficult, and at the same time more important than the insight into the reasons for pursuing a definite order of sequence in every detail of the examination."
                            His book then details how to examine the head, then the Thorax, followed by the Abdomen.

                            It is difficult to imagine any justification for reaching into the abdomen to access the heart as a legitimate scientific method. Too much damage can be done to the abdominal organs.
                            Regards, Jon S.

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