What Do Astrakhan Man and Liz Stride Have in Common?

[c.d.]

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the Astrakhan man actually existed and that he was dressed exactly as Hutchinson described him. The general consensus seems to be that dressed as he was, he was a prime target and most certainly would have been assaulted and robbed as he walked the streets of Whitechapel. Now what if had been able to fight off the first would be robber or the robber was somehow scared off? Would a second assault that night by a different robber seems so improbable? Would that really defy the odds? I think it would simply be the direct result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My point is this. If we readily accept that it would not be unusual or out of the ordinary for the Astakhan man to suffer multiple assaults, why is it so hard to accept that the same thing could have happened to Liz Stride and instead of it defying all odds it was simply a case of a lone woman, a known prostitute, standing by herself late at night in a bad area frequented by rough men.

As they say in the medical profession, "common things are common."

c.d.

P.S. I started by saying "for the sake of argument". We don't need another did the Astrakhan man really exist thread. Well, at least I don't.

[lynn cates]

slumming

Hello CD. I have no problem with assuming A-man existed and that he was dressed nearly as described.

But why on earth would he be attacked? Toffs seem not uncommon to Spitalfields as part of the phenomenon called "slumming."

Why attack a possible source of revenue?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Maybe I am not getting exactly what you are asking. The obvious answer is that his dress indicates that he is wealthy and therefore might be carrying a relatively large sum of money. Attack him and take it away from him.

c.d.

[Bridewell]

Why?

Hello CD. I have no problem with assuming A-man existed and that he was dressed nearly as described.

But why on earth would he be attacked? Toffs seem not uncommon to Spitalfields as part of the phenomenon called "slumming."

Why attack a possible source of revenue?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Because the attacker knows that he (or she) won't be the beneficiary perhaps?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Schwartz was said to have dressed in a theatrical fashion, it did not deter him from walking the streets.
The "Toff would present a target" is another example of a bogus argument invented by those who cannot accept he existed.

Didn't Sadler claim to get 'rolled' twice in one night? It is not impossible that Stride was assaulted twice, unlikely perhaps, but maybe that thought also occured to her killer.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Toff R Us

Hello CD. Thanks. A toff MAY be connected to a lord. Why take chances?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

trickle down

Hello Colin. Thanks. But surprisingly, the Brits of the 19th c already had a trickle down theory. They seem to have scooped President Reagan by a century.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

When bank robber Willie Sutton was asked why he kept robbing banks, he replied "because that's where the money is." I just can't see some local street tough worrying that the person he is robbing has some Don Corleone like connections. All he would see is a great target.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Cd. Thanks. In which case some research may be in order--subject: toffs in the East End.

Let me know how it comes out. I think you will find many that side who were perfectly safe.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Cd. Thanks. In which case some research may be in order--subject: toffs in the East End.

Let me know how it comes out. I think you will find many that side who were perfectly safe.

Cheers.
LC

Quite so Lynn. "Toffs" were not rare on the streets after dark, many came slumming after the theater or to see some of the unusual and bizarre, which the streets of Whitechapel were rife with. Quite a few incidents where street women cited well dressed men during the Ripper months.

What you are attempting to do CD is to suggest that 2 assaults on one person in one night isnt impossible, Id leave the Astrakan issue aside since it has no bearing on that question. You would be correct in your assumption...its not impossible.

Unfortunately in the case of Liz Stride you do not even have 1 authenticated assault on her that night, and the story that proposed one would have left very little time to have someone new come along to merely slit her throat.

The more probable scenario is that Liz was already in the company of the man that eventually killed her during the period that Schwartz alleged the attack occurred. Because no-one aside from Schwartz saw Liz Stride on the street after 12:35am for one...indicating she likely had gone into the passageway, and secondly, the alleged assault is ongoing at the time Liz Stride may have received her throat cut. The earliest time suggested by Blackwell.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Errata]

Well, it's possible both circumstances could be true. It is my experience that every town has good parts and bad parts. London is clearly no exception. But the bad parts still have good parts. I have been perfectly safe in some of the worst neighborhoods in the US, because I was in the places where outsiders come to slum. But wander a block in any direction and there's no way I would have been remotely safe. Essentially, just because the locals have learned not mess with outsiders at certain bars, on on the main strip, or a block of business does not mean they won't strip you bare if you leave that zone. In order to be truly safe in bad neighborhoods you either have to blend or have established a presence. And certain "toffs" did establish a presence, Sickert being a notable example, but even then they weren't free to wander as they chose. Typically, they had associates who were locals to the area wandering around with them, lending them a kind of protection. Astrakhan Man was not accompanied by fellow dissolutes, nor was he recognizable in the area. His description rang no bells, and even Hutch expressed surprise that he was in the neighborhood. Not someone I would think could operate with impunity.

Liz Stride was likely not a victim of robbery, since she was clearly surprised. But she may have had a "hit" out on her for some reason or another. There were any number of people in the neighborhood it would not pay to piss off or owe in some way. I have no idea why she was killed, but it seems to me pretty obvious that she was killed deliberately, as opposed to being killed as a consequence of some exchange. She wasn't arguing with someone and they lashed out. Someone snuck up behind her and cut her throat with no warning, no talking, no demands having been made. So while it's possible that someone was simply determined to kill any woman, it's more likely that someone was determined to kill her specifically.

[Michael W Richards]

Astrakhan Man was not accompanied by fellow dissolutes, nor was he recognizable in the area. His description rang no bells, and even Hutch expressed surprise that he was in the neighborhood.

Hi Errata,

Since we have someone who could well have been a confederate of Astrakan Man watching the courtyard entrance, (see Pardon For Accomplices issued November 10th), and since we have someone of that period who would be known by people in the East End and who did look like and wear what was described in Hutch's statement, and since we have a statement that was issued by someone who lacked the credibility to enable a sustained search for his "suspect", I wouldnt assume too much here.

The man Hutch said he saw could well be someone that was known in the area, was known to be dangerous, and as such could walk anywhere he wanted to on those streets without fear. Hutch may just have been "setting someone up", perhaps based on his own fears of the man he says he saw.

Best regards,

Mike R